For years, Lori battled what she described as an “obsession with food,” including an all-consuming sugar addiction.
(Of all the challenges I see in my work this one’s a biggie. It’s so common, so powerful, and it’s one of THE primary pitfalls that knock people off the keto wagon, over and over again.)
She was terrified of turning into her mother—aren’t we all?—who struggled with obesity and a myriad of other health issues.
“I had a few friends who were doing keto and seemed to be getting results. One of them recommended a book for me to try, but the farthest I got with it was giving up sugar and flour.”
After a few unsuccessful attempts at a self-guided keto plan, Lori found a super-restrictive diet and tried to force herself into submission: Overeaters Anonymous.
“Honestly, that only made things worse. There were so many strict rules and regulations around what NOT to do, that you end up obsessing about food nonstop.”
On the surface, Lori’s primary goal was weight-related; she wanted to achieve and maintain a healthy weight, like we all do.
“I literally hated myself when the scale would tip 170.”
But there was something deeper at work than just the numbers on a scale.
Lori wanted to be free of her constant obsession with food, and she needed relief from those intense sugar cravings. She was also concerned with her focus and overall brain function, and eager to prevent things like Alzheimer’s Disease, which ran in her family.
But even more than that, she wanted to love herself. She wanted her self-esteem back.
As the primary chef and meal provider for her non-keto family, she found it impossible to maintain the keto lifestyle. She kept starting and stopping, and after a few years of this, she finally decided it was time to enlist some help.
Spoiler alert: it was me! 😉
After two months on the program, Lori had lost 20 pounds, and 8 inches off her waist (which is pretty remarkable, considering she’s only 5’3”).
But—as so often happens with the keto diet—she also noticed improvements in areas she never expected…
Her gums were no longer inflamed and/or bleeding. Her rosacea went away completely. Her arthritis pain improved significantly, as did her sleep; and her gas, bloating, and stomach cramps went away for good.
She even stopped having hot flashes!
And as for her sugar addiction?
This is one of my favorite things to help people overcome, and here’s why:
A lot of popular keto approaches try to recreate your favorite high-carb foods with “keto friendly” versions, so you don’t feel deprived or left out.
It’s a nice sentiment, but that approach actually keeps you addicted. It’s like putting a band-aid on the craving, instead of getting RID of it altogether.
When you “satisfy” a craving with something that tastes sweet (even if it’s technically keto-approved), you reinforce the craving.
That’s why my program is designed to get rid of cravings, not just postpone them, nor invite them to come back again the next day. I taught Lori what triggers cravings, so that they never happen in the first place.
And THAT’S how you untangle yourself from a lifelong sugar addiction.
“I am THRILLED. If I could go back in time and tell myself, ‘Pay this woman this money, and you’ll love yourself and be really happy!’ I totally would—but I also know, I wouldn’t have believed in myself enough to follow my own advice.”
High five, Lori! 🙌
Do you have a story (or a question) about food obsession and/or sugar addiction? Tell me all about it in the comments below!
My journey to Keto and Carole began after many years of low carb, low fat, and liquid diets. All with some modicum of success; albeit only temporary.
After a year of stress and five rounds of antibiotics, I developed a digestive disorder called SIBO; small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. The treatment options include a no sugar and low carb diet along with herbal supplements. I was successful to a point but still suffered. I had heard about Keto and logically it made sense. Very low carb, intermittent fasting, and eating more fat were all ways to eradicate the bacteria. I was smart enough to know however, that if I wanted to change my life and make the transition to eating the Keto way, I needed professional help. I found Carole and loved the program, embracing the simplicity and my new way of eating. I have had great success. My stomach is flat after 2 years of misery.
Most people gage their success by the number on the scale, and while I have had success with the scale, it is really the smalls ways my body has improved that are more important to my success. I feel an inner joy and peace and happiness that I haven’t felt in a long time. My strength, stamina and balance have improved as well. I have more energy to enjoy the beautiful Pacific Northwest; a place I love exploring with my husband.
Hey everyone I’m so excited to be here today with Robin and sharing her secrets to success. Keto Robin, welcome, welcome Robin.
Thank you it’s very nice to be with you this afternoon and I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Yeah, wonderful. So share with people watching like what are you, introduce yourself please.
My name is Robin. I live in the southern part of Washington. I’m 63-years-old. I’m married. I have a husband. I have one daughter whose 29, lives in Denver. And I have been struggling with my weight my whole life. I mean the first diet my mom ever put me on I was 8-years-old. And ever since I’ve done liquid protein, the shakes, the Atkins … I’ve done it all.
[inaudible 00:01:18] but they were always short lived. Nothing ever felt permanent. So I developed a digestive disorder and logically, I thought well, to cure this digestive disorder I need to eat no sugar and low carb because the bacteria doesn’t like it. I did that and I needed to go farther and I found your Carole. It’s like one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. Find you and embrace the keto way of eating. I will never change. It’s been a miracle for me. I wish … If I could shout from a mountaintop to all those [inaudible 00:02:06] suffering women and people out there.
There is a cure. There is way to combat it. Just come and join the keto community. Do that I would because it’s been a life changing experience for me.
Wonderful. I’m so excited that we found each other. That you found me too. So kind of paint a picture. So you’ve had fantastic results and that’s part of why you’re here is to help inspire others. Tell me, kind of paint a picture, what were your big struggles before because you were dabbling in keto low carb before we started working together. What were the lingering problems and symptoms. Like I call it the “why” list. Like why was this important for you to solve it.
My energy level was very low. I didn’t have any stamina. I couldn’t get the last 20 pounds off. I think I suffered from a little bit of depression. My [cebo 00:03:10] never really went away. I would have periodic bouts with it. A lot of abdominal discomfort and I just wasn’t getting to the place that I knew I could get physically, mentally I wanted to have mental clarity, be able to focus, have the inner feeling of peace and joy inside. I just wanted to feel better and that and yes, I wanted to try to get into a size 10 and I lowered my body fat content and all which now, believe it or not, I’m getting into some size eights, which I’ve even surpassed myself, which is really amazing.
But that’s basically what led me, what I was suffering from is the feeling of general malaise and just not feeling myself.
Okay and those are kind of the symptoms, the things that were uncomfortable in your life that you wanted to resolve. What were your big obstacles in just doing this all on your own? What was standing in your way? What was it that … I think I …
What was standing in my way was a framework of how to do this. There is so much information out on the internet. [inaudible 00:04:42], opinions, what to eat, how to eat, how much to eat. [inaudible 00:04:48] I mean it’s all so confusing. Logically that if I wanted to create a framework for myself for better health and wellness, I needed to find someone to help me and that’s what led me to you and that’s why I really believe that if you want to be successful at this program you need to find someone, like you Carole to help because you set the framework, the guidelines, the diet in the beginning.
It’s simple, it’s easy, it’s quick. You just follow it. You get on track. You start feeling better. It just is a natural progression to better health and wellness. You just can’t do it on your own. You get frustrated. You hear too many opinions. It’s confusing. Your friends and your family are poo pooing it. They don’t want you to do it. So I know I needed to backbone and the framework from your program.
And you’ve followed the structure of my program to a “T” and you put in the hard work and you’ve gotten fantastic results. So over several months of working together what are the results that you’ve experienced?
Well, I’ve lost about 25 pound and I’ve been on the program since August of 2018. I don’t know if I mentioned that. I’ve lost about 25 pounds. I have lost a total of 16 and 3/4 inches all over my body. I mean it’s amazing. I [inaudible 00:06:25] my body fat content from 28% done to 26%. Besides those numbers I feel so happy inside. I feel joyful and peaceful inside and I’m sleeping better. I just I feel like I did in my 40s. I think it’s given me 20 years.
That’s amazing. That’s awesome.
I really feel 20 years younger.
And what are some of the surprise improvements. Everyone has a list of things they hope would happen. You said that things far exceeded what you expected. What were some of the surprises you got?
My stamina. I used to live in Colorado and you deal with the altitude in Colorado and we go back and visit our daughter and new son-in-law periodically. I went in for Labor Day and I was just getting into the program and I was going through a transitional phase and I was wiped out. I had no … I mean it was a struggle for me to be at 10,000 feet, 9,000-10,000 feet. And after Thanksgiving, what an incredible transformation. I mean I hadn’t even been on it that long but my stamina, my energy, my hiking. I just … I was just like a different person. It was as good as night and day.
And I continued that in my workouts. I have a trainer that I work with three times a week and my strength, my balance, my ability to perform the moves that she asked me to do. Which she’s ramping up the workout because I can do it now. Which I love the challenge. So that to me … one of my goals was to improve the way my body moved through space. Which I know that sounds kind of weird but when you always had … at one point I was over 53% body fat. So that dictates how your body moves through space. Now, I love … I feel my body moving through space. I love the way it moves. My posture. My balance. My strength. My stamina. Everything has been improved tremendously.
I didn’t realize what a dramatic change it would be.
That’s wonderful and Robin I talk to a lot of ladies that are concerned about, well, I don’t think keto will work for me because I’m post menopause and so I haven’t had a challenge with anyone yet regardless of their age. But you’re a great example of that. So did you have those doubts coming into this. The well, I’m postmenopausal and everybody says it’s really hard to lose weight.
You know that is such a good point Carole because oh, you just 63-years-old. You’re middle aged. You can’t move like you were supposed to. You can’t move like you used to. You just give it up. And my motto is, I want to be able to say, “I’ve fallen and I can get up.” Not that I’ve fallen and I can’t get up. I want to say, “I can get up.” And so for me I felt like I was stuck with my weight loss. I had no idea that doing this program that at 63, I could lose 20+ pounds in such a short period of time and enjoy the food and feel amazing.
And it has been amazing. I mean my daughter is trying to do it. She’s 29 and I’ve had better results than she has. And she’s 29-years-old. I mean come on. I encourage all you ladies out there if you’re post menopausal. Just jump in and do it. You’re going to feel amazing.
Wonderful. So what are some of the things, the keys to your success and us working together. Of the … You mentioned the framework of what I bring to my clients but there’s a lot of different components of it. So what are the parts that you feel like were really essential for your success?
I think in the beginning don’t think about it. Just follow the simple menu plans that you provide. Keeping it simple. Keeping it quick. And really the hardest thing for a lot of people is listening to your body. When you’re hungry. It’s okay not to eat. We’ve been raised with three meals a day. I did one program in Denver where I had to eat six times a day. I mean this is such a change, but you just follow the simple recipes in the beginning. That is part of the framework for your overall success because then you’ve got the basics down. Then you can expand on it later on down the road.
You can change things up. Alter things a little bit. Expand your food but just following, just giving it up in the beginning and following the plan. Let Carole do the thinking for you and you’ll have success.
Wonderful. Well anything else that you want to share? You were hoping I would ask about?
Just … I think I’ve pretty much said it all. Just have such a zest for life and when I [inaudible 00:12:21] works. I just really do want to shout it from the mountain top and I just encourage. I think my hormones were better. I had a hysterectomy in 1997. So I’ve been on hormones for many years and I truly believe this has helped smooth everything out. I had all my blood work done recently. My cholesterol, my HDL, LDL are all great. My hormones are great.
I mean I’m [inaudible 00:12:50] my protein is low. All those things that measure our aging process are all really good. So I’m … this is permanent for me. This isn’t a diet. This is a way of living for me and I really encourage everyone to embrace it because it really will change your life.
Wonderful. Robin, I can’t thank you enough for being here and sharing your story and being so open. You’re going to be a huge inspiration for so many people out there too and excited to have you joining our team. Robin’s had such great success she gets to be a mentor and coach to others as well. So excited to have you. Welcome Robin. And again, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story.
Thank you Carole. Thank you for being out there for us. For being a guiding light for a transformational process. I really appreciate all the work you’ve put into it and all the help you’ve given me and I look forward to paying it forward with people in the future.
Wonderful, well thank you so much. Thank you everyone for watching. And until next time we’ll see you later. Bye.
Jimmy Moore catapulted onto the health scene in 2004 after a phenomenal 180-pound weight loss enabled him to come off prescription drugs for high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and respiratory problems. He is the energetic personality behind the uber-popular blog Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb and the host of the longest-running and top-ranked iTunes health podcast, The Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show, as well as Low-Carb Conversations and Keto Talk. He has interviewed well over 1,000 of the world’s top health experts and has dedicated his life to helping people get the best information possible about nutrition so they can make the right decisions for their health. He’s the international bestselling author of The Ketogenic Cookbook, Keto Clarity, and Cholesterol Clarity. Learn more about Jimmy and his work at www.livinlavidalowcarb.com.
Christine Moore is a Nutritional Therapy Practitioner who specializes in real food–based low-carb, high-fat, ketogenic nutrition. She helps clients around the globe via Skype through her Rebooting Your Nutrition business (www.rebootingyournutrition.com) and is passionate about customizing the diet to the individual. Christine and her husband, international bestselling keto author, podcaster, and speaker Jimmy Moore, are the cohosts of The Nutritional Pearls Podcast (,www.nutritionalpearlspodcast.com). She works diligently to get to the underlying issues in digestion, gut health, and blood sugar and insulin levels to optimize health nutritionally in the most natural way possible. Christine and Jimmy reside in Spartanburg, South Carolina, with their four cats and fifteen backyard chickens.
Welcome everyone to another episode of Keto Chat. I am your host, Carole Freeman, certified nutritionist and keto diet implementation person. I am so excited. I am here today with the world renowned Jimmy Moore and Christine Moore. World renowned. Yeah, and oh my gosh, this is the first time I’ve gotten to do a video interview. I’ve been bugging Jimmy for a video interview for a long time and so he’s excited enough about this new book collaboration with Christine that he’s finally willing to do it.
So let me just … If you don’t know who he is, let me just read this bio. You should know. So Jimmy Moore catapulted onto the health scene in 2004 after a phenomenal 180 pound weight loss enabled him to come off prescription drugs for high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and respiratory problems. He is the energetic personality behind the uber popular blog Living La Vida Low-Carb and the host of the longest running … Yes, you heard that right, the longest running top ranked iTunes health podcast, the Living La Vida Low-Carb Show as well as Low Carb Conversations and Keto Talk. He’s interviewed well over a thousand of the world’s top health experts and has dedicated his life to helping people get the best information possible about nutrition so they can make the right decisions for their health. He’s an international best selling author of “The Ketogenic Cookbook,” “Keto Clarity,” and “Cholesterol Clarity.” You can read more about him … Well, we’ll put some links in the show notes here about how to get in touch.
And then Christine is here as well. She is a nutritional therapy practitioner who specializes in real food based low-carb, high-fat ketogenic nutrition. She helps clients around the globe via Skype through her Rebooting Your Nutrition business and is passion about customizing the diet to the individual.
Christine and her husband, internationally best selling author … Oh we heard about him already. They both have a podcast together too, so Nutritional Pearls Podcast. She works diligently to get to the underlying issues of digestion, gut health, and blood sugar and insulin levels to optimize health nutritionally in the most natural way possible. Christine and Jimmy, they’re actually joining us from Spartanburg, South Carolina today. And outside the studio, you’ve got your four cats and 15 backyard chickens. Is it still 15?
Six? Oh no.
Oh 26. Okay. Hey, well, welcome. Welcome you guys. You guys are here to talk about your brand new book. So yeah, real food keto applying nutritional therapy to your low-carb, high-fat diet. So tell us how did that come to be?
Yeah, so Christine went through this program last year and you were telling us before you came on the air that you kind of went through a little bit of the principles with Gray Graham in the early days before you went to Ram in the early days before you went to Bastyr. Well, if you choose not to go the natural medicine route, this is a really good program and what was funny was they offered me a scholarship to go through the program, the MTA did, and I’m like, really? I have five books and five podcasts a week, I just didn’t have time, but I said, “How about this? I wonder if my wife would be interested?” So I said, “Christine, do you wanna go back to school?” And it had been years since she’d been in school. And so … oh, hello kitty. So many years since she’d been in school, but she was like, “Well, I’ve always been wanting to go and get more education. Why not do it in the nutritional realm?”
So when she went through this whole program, at the end of it I was like, “Wow. There’s so much really good knowledge in this program that nobody’s talking about and keto.” So I pitched my publisher and I said, “Hey, I’ve got this idea. Let’s mix the best concepts of nutritional therapy with the best concepts of keto and see if we can make a book out of it.” So that’s how “Real Food Keto” was born.
That is fantastic. What was the process like as husband and wife writing a book together?
Oh, let me tell you, it was interesting at times.
She’s still speaking to me, so that’s awesome.
My job in the beginning was just to brain dump. I didn’t need to worry about anything else, just get all the information in there and Jimmy would come behind me, and as you know, he’s good at making things understandable for just about anybody to understand. He went in behind me, he focused more on the beginning and he wrote about the ketogenic diet principles and he covered that sort of stuff and I handled more of the nutritional therapy principles. But when it came time for him to come behind me, he sat down at my computer and started going through it, doing really good, and then when it came to the nutritional therapy principles-
Part three, yeah. He’s like, “Whoa. Okay.”
I was like, “Come here.”
Can you come explain this?
What the heck is a prostaglandin one? I’m not getting it. Help me understand and so …
It was like in and out, in and out, in and out of the room.
Well, at one point she just plopped her butt down right next to me on the floor and said, “All right. I know you’re gonna ask me in about three minutes another question, so I’ll be here when you need me.”
Yeah, but it was an interesting process because I knew how to explain it in my head, but I had to make sure that I was explaining it to him so he could understand it. So even I had to look up some stuff, some terms that maybe I didn’t get in going through the program. It was very interesting. It was very aggravating at times I guess, but it was fun.
That’s a bonding marriage exercise then right.
[inaudible 00:06:16], yes.
Yeah. For people that aren’t familiar with nutritional therapy, tell us … what’s it bringing to the space that we’ve been missing? How is it different than just following a keto diet?
When you hear about a ketogenic diet, this is where it gets kind of confusing too because people’s definition of ketogenic is so many different things, but at the base of it ketogenic is low-carb, moderate protein, high fat. You hear a lot about that but you don’t hear a lot about these other principles that we cover in part three, like vitamins and minerals. You don’t hear a lot about digestion and how that works. You don’t hear about detoxification. You don’t hear about the endocrine system and other things. We talk a little bit about the immune system in there. You can eat the most perfect diet but if these other things are not in order, you’re still gonna struggle with weight and health.
And Carole, one thing that drew me to this book, other than getting to write one with my wife, that was way cool, was it’s been on my heart and mind for years that there’s so many people eating keto that don’t add the real food aspect. Even some of the doctor … one of our speakers on the low-carb cruise and you were with us, and some of those doctors would say, “Oh, don’t worry about the food quality, it’s all about keeping the carbs down. If they do that, everybody will get into ketosis and everybody’s happy,” and I’m going, “That’s an incomplete story that you’re giving there.” I think if we tell people it’s all about macronutrients, we don’t eat macronutrients, we eat food. Don’t you want them to fuel their bodies with the best possible fuel, and that would be real food.
I didn’t see it as being an emphasis in the community enough, which was my impetus for wanting to marry these two seemingly perfect combinations of real food and keto into one book.
Nice. So Christine, I’m curious, after you went through the training, did anything change for you as far as what you were eating or supplementation or anything like that?
Yeah, it did. I pretty much ate the same thing. I definitely then understood the importance of staying away from diuretics, carbonated beverages because the carbonation, those diet sodas and even carbonated water, has phosphoric acid in it which interferes with stomach acid production and your body’s ability to absorb calcium, so I cut drastically back on the diet sodas.
She loved her Diet Dr. Pepper and I don’t think you’ve had one in a long time now.
Yeah, I’ve had a little bit today just because since my shoulder surgery I haven’t slept well, so I’m really dragging. But, so I needed a little bit of caffeine. That was one thing-
See you choked up Carole on that one.
I know, right? Cutting back on the diet sodas and even carbonated water. I started supplementation. I realized going through the program we practiced on each other going through the program, the functional evaluation where we looked at HCL production, and so if you press on a certain spot, if it’s really tender then it’s probably an indication that you’re not producing enough stomach acid so for me that was one of my hot spots. Two things that are needed for stomach acid production are B6 and zinc, and so I knew, because I was getting sick often, zinc is also good for the immune system, so I started supplementing with zinc and then just to make sure that I have a good multivitamin that includes methylated folate because I have the MTHFR gene mutation from-
What’d you call me?
From both sides of the family so I have to take a methylated folate, because my body can’t convert folic acid into folate. I really learned that it basically all starts with digestion, and if you are in a sympathetic state, meaning a stressful state, then even smelling food, digestion starts in the brain. If that is stressed from the beginning, everything else is going to get messed up. So absolutely supplements, I learned that. I learned the importance of proper digestion, so I take these measures. I make sure that I sit down and am chewing my food, not doing any other activity so that will give my stomach the best chance to digest the foods properly.
And you do digestive enzymes and things that you didn’t take before with the beta … whatever it’s called.
Beta TCP, or I do beta plus. It’s a combination of supplements that are good for digestion, beet root and other things. I also learned that warm lemon water, if you drink that with your meal that’s good because that aids in the bile flow as well.
Otherwise her hair goes “Ah.”
Oh that was perfect. We’re recording this on Halloween actually so that was perfect.
Oh man. That’s giving me flashbacks. Do you guys remember years ago where it was like the stare at this thing and try to tell the difference between the images and it was like a scary … Oh, I was afraid to open it and look at any photos after that forever.
Yeah, the first time that happened to me, oh my goodness. I nearly pooped in my pants.
Crapped your pants.
I don’t trust people sending me anything. Like, “Yes, that’s a pretty picture. I don’t want to look at it.” Anyway. Okay, so what kind of changes have you seen for people that you’ve been working with and yourself? What health improvements and other things are people noticing when they apply these principles?
It’s tough because a lot of times people come to me and they think they’re doing things right and sometimes they are very hesitant to implement the things that I-
Tell her about the one client.
I have one particular client, bless her heart. She’s had some major health challenges and she did a low-fat diet for a long time and that was just ingrained in her so much so one of the first things I suggested that she do, I looked at her food journal, I said, “You need to be eating more calories.” She was only consuming maybe 800 to 1000 calories a day, if that. I said, “You need to add more calories. I know that it goes against everything that you were taught, but you need to do it.” Still, she has a problem with it. She just … it’s something that she still struggles with, but there was one person … actually a couple people in particular that came to me with poop problems and one of them was my dad.
Part of digestion, Jimmy. We’ve got to talk about it.
It is. One of them had diarrhea, chronic diarrhea, and I made suggestions for her to try and she came to me a couple months later and said, “Wow. Thank you. You fixed my chronic diarrhea issue.” Then my dad, this was so funny. You know you have a good relationship with your dad when you can talk to him about his poop.
I ain’t talking to your dad about poop.
He had been having some issues with diarrhea, well, actually, he wouldn’t go but like every three days and then when he went it was like he couldn’t get to the bathroom fast enough because he would have the diarrhea. So I suggested for him to go on a probiotic. So he does that for about a month and he calls me up one day, he goes, “I just need to ask you is it normal to go to the bathroom every day?” I’m like, “Well, are you having diarrhea?” He goes, “No, I’m not having diarrhea. I’m just going every day. Is that normal?” I’m like, “Yes. That’s normal.” Just changes like that really make me feel good that I could help people fix some of their gut problems.
Wonderful. That’s fantastic. So, I got an advanced copy of the book here and it’s four parts. The beginning is like the intro, so what’s the point? Why real food keto. Part two is the macros, so diving into the basics of a well-formulated ketogenic diet. Then part three is what you were talking about, the applying nutritional therapy, so that’s the part that’s all these things that we were just talking about, things people need to worry about. Then, of course we’ve got part four where you include some recipes. What do you want to say about the content of the book? What are your favorite parts?
We thought it was important to lay the basis for what we’re talking about here and who we’re trying to talk to. I mentioned earlier there is a lot of controversy within keto, should it be just about the macronutrients or should it be based on food quality and so we’re trying to reach the real food community as well and not just the keto community. So there’s a lot of people that eat real food and they think that’s their life saver and that that’s really all they have to do. They can have all the real foods they want and there’s no ramifications in their health from doing that.
A lot of people do have really good results doing that, but some people need keto, especially those with the insulin resistance and it’s a lot of us that have insulin resistance. So we’re trying to get them to pay attention to keto, we’re trying to get the keto people to pay attention to real food, and then you’ve got a whole segment of the population that doesn’t give a crap about either one of those things and so we’re trying to reach all of those.Then NTPs and other people like yourself who are trying to help people understand their health a little bit better, we’ve given them a resource that they can use with their patients and clients so that they can optimize their health.
We put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into this to make it unique enough, because I know what happens when a new keto book comes out. I interview a lot of people, Carole, and I’m like, “Ugh. Another keto book, really? How many of these do we need?” But I think we’ve struck the right balance of giving enough new information that people hadn’t heard.
Yep, and I would have to say just because of the information, my favorite aspect is part three, the nutritional therapy principles, because you don’t hear a lot about that, and so many people are still struggling with their weight and they have no idea why. They’re doing exactly what they read to do and yet they’re still struggling and no one’s really … I mean, you can find some of this information on various websites, but you have to go from website to website to find it. We wanted a resource where they could find it all in one book and we hope that we’ve done that with “Real Food Keto.”
So the goal then it sounds like is to help the average person be able to implement these principles to just optimize their health and weight loss and ketogenic diet and/or their real food diet.
Yeah, they definitely need to … if they’re struggling with something, they definitely need to seek out somebody that can help them, because some of these things, they may not necessarily know that that’s why they’re struggling, so a functional medicine doctor or a nutritional therapy practitioner or consultant, somebody, a naturopathy, they could help their client determine where they’re struggling and I think for me … I think in my opinion it all starts with digestion and blood sugar regulation. Those are the first two things that I look at. If their digestion is off, they’re not gonna be able to absorb nutrients properly. If their blood sugar is off, if they’re having these swings, their endocrine system is gonna be off. So we have what’s called the foundations and then the consequences. We get the foundations in order, the consequences will come in line most often.
Excellent. Awesome. Anything different, unique, and special? You’ve got recipes in the book from Maria Emmerich, our beloved, oh my gosh. That lady turns out … I can’t believe what a powerhouse she is with her recipes that she can come up with.
She came up with the 50 recipes for our book in about a week.
Well, actually there were two from me, but …
Well 48 recipes.
In about a week, she had basically cranked those out. I’m like, “I barely have turned on the stove in a week, much less cranked out 48 recipes.” She did an amazing job and we gave her very specific guidelines. Okay, this is about real food so we’re trying to stick to real whole foods as much as possible, get people interested in how to make bone broth, how to make a very low sugar kombucha because gut health is such a big emphasis in the book, so we wanted fermented foods. She is just an amazing resource for people and we were very honored to have her a part of the book.
Excellent. You kind of hinted there a little bit about … I was gonna ask what’s different about the recipes in this book versus some of the other recipes? You’ve got some fermented foods and things like that?
Yeah, absolutely. That’s the real main difference because all of Maria’s recipes-
Have real food.
Yeah, have real food, so the main difference is the bone broth and the fermented foods because gut health is a very important thing. We’re still learning so much about that. It’s so brand new. Then the bone broth, when Weston A. Price visited the traditional cultures, he found that all of them ate [inaudible 00:20:25], all of them included bone broth in their diet, all of them included salt, fermented foods and things like this so we felt that absolutely necessary to get a few recipes that included the bone broth and the fermented foods in there. It’s just so important.
Nice. Well, I’m excited to try some. Just kind of wrapping up, was there anything else that you were hoping I would ask about? Anything else that you want to share about this book or anything else?
Well, Christine and I actually read the audio book version of this and so I’m in my podcast recording studio and I was like, “Hey, I read all my books.” Hint, hint, hint. She’s like, “What? You need me to read?” I was like, “Yeah, yeah, I think it would be kind of cool,” especially the introduction, Carole. Read that one slowly. Christine shares her health story and if it doesn’t grip people right away, you have no heartbeat because she’s been through hell and back, literally, in her health which has made her so passionate now to talk about a lot of these things. But we read the audio book together and she thought, “Oh, well that sounds easy.” Was it easy?
No. It’s not easy. There were some times I was trying to read something and I kept messing over it just saying a word over and over. I’m like, “I can’t talk. Man. This is hard.”
I had to [crosstalk 00:21:47]. It’s a lot harder reading words on the page without sounding like Mr. Roboto.
Yeah, because the brain automatically … if you’re reading a sentence, your brain will kind of change words up or add something in there or take something away that’s not really there, and so nope. I would do something like that. He would stop me.
Say it again.
I would go, “Nope.” What’s funny is you have to change the tone of your voice a little bit, so on “Keto Clarity,” moment of clarity quote, Dr. David [inaudible 00:22:18],” so you’d have to kind of get into a little bit of a voice. She got there at the end, but it was just … it was fun watching her after I’ve done, what, five audio books. Trying to bust through it.
Nice. Cool. Yeah, it’s a challenge and it’s a new skill set you’ve got now. Well, what’s to come next? Are you starting to write the next one already or are you gonna …
No, I don’t know if another one’s gonna be in me, but the moment you say that you’ll probably end up writing another one.
We’re working with our publisher on a book tour. Usually book stores don’t do book tours in November and December, so it’s probably going to be in the new year sometime. We’re hoping to get that finalized. I know Jimmy’s got several new book projects.
Oh I have four coming in the next year and a half after this one, so, yeah. Then we do our show, Nutritional Pearls Podcast, so we try to talk about a lot of these concepts. If you want to get a flavor for some of what we write about in “Real Food Keto,” go listen to the Nutritional Pearls Podcast. It’s on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Yeah, so we talk about a lot of these in great detail if you want to nerd out a little bit more on it.
Excellent. Nice. All right, so I just have one final closing question. The meteor’s coming at us today, we’re all gonna be wiped out on the planet. What’s gonna be your final meal?
Oh that’s a good question.
Each of you.
If I’m gonna die today, my final meal?
Oh my. Not low-carb, I’ll tell you that.
Okay. I love when people are actually honest and say something like that.
Mine, probably yeah, not low-carb. It would be chocolate molten cake.
Okay. Like a giant … the flaming ball is coming at us and you’re having a flaming lava cake.
Every bit of it. I guess a big plate of pasta. I don’t know. We’re dying, it doesn’t matter, I suppose, what ketone levels are when it hits.
Right. Maybe just be numb when it hits, that’s fine. Yeah. Well thank you. Congratulations you guys on your book and thank you so much for being here. We’re gonna have all the links down below. “Real Food Keto” available wherever you get books, online, bookstores, all that stuff. What’s the actual release date?
The release date is November 6th, but we just found out it’s gonna be in all US Costco stores the week of Black Friday, so how cool is that?
Oh wow. So November 6, 2018, look for it in Costco and also wherever you get books. Thank you guys again for being here. This has been wonderful and best wishes with the launch of this book and everything else you guys have going on.
Thanks so much.
Thank you guys for watching. If you’ve enjoyed this, give us a thumbs up. Also, hit subscribe if you want to see more and then hit that little bell thing as well if you want to get notifications of your subscription. That’s all for now. We’ll see you next time. Bye.
Marty is an engineer who developed an interest in nutrition to better manage his wife’s Type 1 diabetes.
He runs the blog OptimisingNutrition.com and has recently launched NutrientOptimiser.com to automate his approach to nutrition which revolves around optimising nutrient density, insulin load and satiety to suit an individual’s situation and goals.
Welcome everyone to Keto and beyond. My name is Carole Freeman, I’m here with Andre as well and we’ve got Marty Kendall.
You can call me Keto tutor.
Keto tutor, yes. Andre is known as Keto tutor online. Today, our special guest is Marty Kendall, way down in Australia. He is the amazing author, data gatherer at Optimising Nutrition, a fantastic blog. So welcome, welcome Marty.
Thank you Carole, thanks so much for having us on and good to meet you Andre.
Good to meet you too.
Marty, tell us a little bit about yourself.
I’m an engineer by day and I suppose I stumbled into the world of nutrition. My wife is a type one diabetic, and just an ongoing experience of trying to live an optimized life with diabetes. Just seeing her day to day fluctuations and how much food mattered to her, and how it affected her energy levels and her mood and her quality of life. So that’s been an ongoing journey of trying to learn how to improve that and optimize it. About three years ago, I stumbled across the food insulin index data, which was a bit unorganized. I downloaded it and played with it, and reorganized it to really optimize insulin dosing for people with diabetes. So if you’re injecting insulin, we found that it’s not just carbohydrates but also protein has an impact on insulin and the short terminals of fiber has a negative impact on insulin.
So for those people, the food insulin index helps us to prioritize foods that have a lower insulin response over the short term, and also help stabilize blood sugars. So that’s really handy, it’s basically ketogenic in a formula. So that was where I started out. I started sharing that and then stumbled into a whole bunch of other things. I continue to share and learn and blog, and it’s been a really fantastic journey. I made a lot of amazing friends like yourselves and yeah, it’s really, really fascinating and really, really important just because people really struggle. I try to bring a quantitative engineering precision to nutrition to help fine tune, and eek out those challenges for a lot of people finding their nutritional journey.
Excellent, excellent. So insulin, when you said the insulin index is really fascinating. Like you said it’s the key to this whole Keto thing that our people are [inaudible 00:03:03] right? So can you explain a little bit more about why insulin is so important on a ketogenic diet, and in general for weight loss which is what a lot of our listeners are interested in.
It’s a fascinating controversial topic and have been through the challenges, and through the learning process with a lot of people in this ketogenic journey. As I said, what we found is that if you’re injecting insulin and if your pancreas is producing insulin, it produces more for carbohydrates, but half as much for protein and fiber which is indigestible, doesn’t really have an impact. So we subtract that and fat in the short term doesn’t have an impact but in the longer term, it still seems to have some impact whether it’s as much as carbohydrates, not sure but over the longer term, it still has some impact. So then I suppose what we’ve realized more recently is the energy balance still matters to a degree, but the people who have blood sugars that are fluctuating, and on a rollercoaster bringing that insulin load of your diet down.
We can quantitatively analyze that in your food, bringing that insulin load down and help stabilize blood sugars in your insulin. So your cravings are improved so you can then be less addicted to food, and less compulsively eating because of those blood sugar swings. So that’s really handy but I suppose then we realized that to drive it to the other end, if you’re just drinking refined fat which we’ll probably talk about later, it doesn’t provide a lot of satiety, doesn’t provide a lot of nutrients. So there’s a balance point there finding a diet that stabilizes your blood sugars, and insulin doesn’t require you to inject too much insulin, but also provides enough protein and micronutrients, vitamins and minerals to provide satiety.
Man, you’re full of information and I want to unpack more of what you said there because I think right now my head’s a little spinning, and I know everything you just said [inaudible 00:05:08]. The listeners were going like, “Oh my gosh, what at all did he just say? I don’t even know.” So maybe if we just dive into maybe some practical application of what you’re [inaudible 00:05:18]. So what have you found as far as types of foods that people should be eating that are going to provide the most satiety for one? So help people feel full and control their appetite.
Yeah. I suppose initially if you’re managing diabetes, a lot of those people who become really inflamed in a base, and get high blood sugars are doing that because they’re eating a lot of foods that are a combination of not just carbohydrates but carbohydrates and fat. A lot of food system has really, the food manufacturers have worked out that processed starch, corns and corn starch and potato starch and all those sorts of things smashed together with cheap Crisco and seed oils. Soybean oils are really cheap and cost effective, so that’s basically what is in the middle of our supermarket, and the McDonald’s and that’s what our food system consists of. So that’s what people are thinking a lot of the time are really at base because that combination is basically a doughnut, or a cake, and it’s really easy to overeat.
So at that point, those foods just drive over eating and make it very easy to eat, and don’t provide you a lot of satiation, or protein, or nutrients really. So at that point it’s really good to go, “Well, let’s not fear the fat, let’s bit more dairy, bit more cheese, bit more butter in my coffee,” whatever will help you switch and transition from a really processed carbohydrate diets, to a more satiating, more nutrient dense diet. Then I suppose more recently, I’ve been digging into the whole concept of satiety of once you get to that point. If you’ve stalled, if you want to continue your journey, how do you continue to optimize with I suppose numerically being an engineer. How do you continue that fine tuning? What we’ve found is that foods with more protein tend to make you more satiated, or tend to make you feel more full with less calories.
Foods with more fiber tend to fill you up in the short term, while foods that have got a lot of process starch and carbohydrates tend to not fill you up as much, and also refined oils don’t tend to fill you up as much. So I suppose at that point, a lot of people reach a point where they go like, “I’ve plateaued, where do I go from here? Do I just keep on, keep calm and keto on and put more butter in my coffee and be more ketogenic and drive my ketones higher.” That doesn’t work well for everybody and for some people they need to start pulling out that added fat, so that the fat can come off their body. I know that’s controversial, but that’s I suppose my conviction after looking at it a lot and seeing a lot of debate and discussion online. So yeah.
Sounds like you’re saying get adequate protein for satiety, have some fiber and that gives you that both short term and long term satiety there. Then don’t over do it on the fats if you have weight loss as a goal, is what you found?
Okay, [inaudible 00:08:41] there’s the answer.
It comes down to just eating real food that’s not too processed, and was recently attached to the ground as animal or a plant in some way. Those things that are just packaged and bar coded and have a long list of nutrients, and artificial flavors, they’re probably not going to be good for you, and probably not going to contain the micronutrients you need either.
Yeah. So let’s define that because when people, a lot of people are familiar on keto with macros, which are carbs, fats, and proteins, but these micronutrients, what does that mean?
Yeah, micronutrients is the vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids and amino acids which is your yeah. So generally in our diet what I found is that we tend to find it easy to get adequate protein, because without chasing too much most people are getting adequate. If they continue to chase the harder to find micronutrients, the vitamins and minerals and Omega threes, they tend to get even more protein potentially but that just comes along for the ride without having to chase it. So I suppose with my system, a segue hacker we quantify nutrition. There’s so much argument and confusion, and so much vested interest in bias, and commercial bias, and people are defending the studies that the university did 30 years ago, and they’re still basically as covering to try and cover up.
It just seems that there’s so much confusion out there. So I said, “Well, let’s try to isolate the food to harder foods that have more of the micronutrients that we find harder to find.” So you can, like you’ve talked about before, you can track your food in chronometer and those sort of apps to look at, hey which vitamins and minerals am I not getting enough of? A lot of the time people on keto are not getting enough potassium or magnesium, because they’re taking all carbs out of their diet and they’re contained in green veggies. So we can then identify the foods that contain more of those nutrients and prioritize those at the front of the line, and add more of those to our diet. So that’s part of the optimizing nutrition angle of what I’m trying to do.
Why should we care about micronutrients?
Well I think you’ve probably heard of the protein leverage hypothesis, but what I’ve seen more and more digging into micronutrients is the protein, and vitamins and minerals that intimately linked together that whenever there’s protein, there’s vitamins and minerals and vice versa. So I think a body craves those harder to find nutrients, so we continue to eat, we continue to consume more energy until we get those nutrients. So if we’re having very nutrient poor highly processed food, a body will just go, “Well I need more potassium, I need more magnesium.” While we can’t quantify it perfectly, a body just continues to pursue energy in food until we get that, to feel okay to drive our fundamental biochemistry level, and mitochondria to produce the energy we need to feel okay.
So we just built for survival and our appetite will always win out even if we try to track our food and limit it. Eventually our bodies are just going to go, “Screw you, I need more food. I need more nutrients to do what I need to do.” So it’s not just about the calories, it’s about those vitamins and minerals that you really need to thrive.
No, that’s really interesting that that’s the research of you’re finding, because I know when I was in school, that was one of the theories of why people overate when they ate a highly processed diet was that they just weren’t getting enough of those nutrients. We do actually have those nutrients sensors within it. So one of the reasons we want to focus on optimizing the nutrients in your diet is so we don’t overeat.
Then also it optimizes our health as well, because we need all those vitamins and minerals for a lot of different processes. All the processes in our body.
Yeah, totally and what we’ve found with the nutrient optimize is that people who have tried to say, “Well, let’s try to maximize the nutrition, the micronutrients in my diet.” They always come back and say well, “I’m tracking and it’s interesting and then I’m looking at how many calories I’m eating. I’m not needing as many calories to feel satiate, to feel full and I didn’t need as much energy.” I’m really surprised and that’s a common thing people find, and it’s not fun tracking your calories and try to limit it to a certain number and rah-rah. If you put that micronutrient density first, then you tend to not overeat is what we’re finding again and again with people.
You mentioned the diabetes of your wife, right? Was it a type one diabetes or?
Yeah, she’s a type one diabetic and we just recently got a closed loop pancreas system. So my day is watching the insulin in her artificial pancreas turn on and off and moderate. So I’ve got a really interesting insight into insulin and how the body regulates insulin, and what foods affect insulin.
So for those people who listen to this and they have type one diabetes, what would you recommend first, for example, three steps to do.
Wow. For type one, I suppose stabilizing blood sugars is a really big deal which is also a matter of stabilizing insulin. If you eat high carbohydrate processed foods, you have to inject a lot of insulin and then the insulin in your blood sugars go up, and then you inject a lot of insulin, and then you have to come down and you’re never sure where they’re going to land. Even the best technology of the artificial pancreas can’t manage that, can’t match a high carbohydrate diet with the insulin dosing. So it’s really a matter of small inputs requires small actions and [inaudible 00:15:11] also the law of small numbers that if you’re not having a really high carbohydrate diet, you don’t need to have massive doses of insulin all at once. That will leave you on that blood sugar rollercoaster, which is what really makes you feel crappy and makes you … When she’s got a really low blood sugar, she needs to eat to get out of that.
I suppose to some extent, it’s the same in people living without type one diabetes, but those blood sugar rollercoaster there’s crashes, there’s highs and lows constantly drive appetite. So just balancing that but I suppose what a lot of people have found is don’t avoid protein, because protein is satiating. People who tend to avoid protein and just end up living on fat bombs and cream in the light can drive insulin resistance, and get to the point where they need more and more insulin on a daily basis, which yeah, type ones are really fascinating laboratory experiment to actually quantify insulin to see how much insulin people need. So there’s a balance point there of getting enough quality nutrition with enough protein, enough greens leafy veggies to get your micronutrients in. Yeah, she doesn’t do a lot of potato starch, because she knows that those blood sugar swings just aren’t worth it.
What her typical day looks like?
A typical day of diet, she’ll wake up and have a … I’ll make her a coffee with some cream in it, with some Stevia as sweeteners. So she finds that milk will raise her blood sugars too much. She ends up eating a lot of nuts which are high fat, and give her a reasonable of nutrition and energy but the energy dense. For dinner, we’ll often have a steak and veggies with broccoli and spinach, and beans and those sorts of things. That works pretty well. Interestingly, fish seems to give a more stable blood sugar response compared to beef, so we tried a little bit more fish and enjoy the salmon and those fatty cuts of meat. I’ve been getting into the eating kangaroo in Australia and which is really, I talked to Carole before about high protein.
High protein, lower fat foods which is good if you’re trying to potentially cut some weight, and gain some muscle but for her, we watched the blood sugars rise and need insulin and it behaves nearly similar to carbohydrate just because it’s such a low fat protein which is really fascinating. So yeah, as I said, it’s an interesting journey to watch moment to moment, blood sugars every five minutes and try to manage those swings.
You have one of the best lamb in the world coming from Australia.
What’s that? Lamb, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s great lamb, we enjoy lamb in New Zealand. Lamb, yeah. It’s very nutrient dense, it’s often just happy lambs on green pastures and that’s what [inaudible 00:18:18].
I found it really fascinating what you said about that for her, seafood and fish cause better blood sugar stability than beef. Do you have any insights into why that is? Is it the mineral acids profile or?
I’ve tried to look at it and I think there’s a difference in the different amino acid profiles. I forget a lot of stuff in my head now, I dug into it a couple of years ago but yeah, there’s different amino acids. Some of them are more ketogenic, and some are more glucogenic. Most of them can either become glucose or ketones depending on what is required at the time but yes, the beef tends to have more glucogenic aminos than the fish. It also tends to be more fatty, the salmon and the cuts of meat are nice and fatty and they give it fairly stable blood sugar. So if you watch her blood sugar overnight, we might have dinner at 6:00 and then her blood sugars might pick around 12:00. Then the insulin chases it back down till about 4:00 AM, then by 6:00 AM when she wakes up, her blood sugar is stable and ready to start the day. So they’d serve an ideal night.
Do you have a sense then if, is there a one perfect diet for everybody or are there [inaudible 00:19:42] in what works for people?
Awesome question. No, well I suppose that’s part of my journey is trying to, I was a massive low carb advocate, but then for myself chasing down a whole lot of unlimited fat, and trying to chase high ketones didn’t work for me because it just added more body fat. For my wife who’s trying to stabilize blood sugars and she doesn’t struggle with weight as much, she can prioritize the fat and not worry about added fat and that’s really advantageous for her. I suppose that’s part of my system is trying to say well some people need therapeutic ketosis for management of epilepsy, so they weren’t really high ketones. Some people who are trying to lose body fat, stimulate call it a ketogenic diet, but it’s totally different approach. So I’ve been trying to optimize the different parameters of nutrient density, insulin load, and satiety for all those different categories of people.
Yeah, it’s been working really well and building that instant nutrient optimize it to help guide people through that journey, because there’s just so much confusion. Lots of people’s say well something worked for me, so it should work for you and I think there is one absolute perfect diet and become religious about it. Really the amount of body fat you’ve got, the amount of activity you do, the amount of muscle mass you’ve got, how much activity, what you lift and all those sort of things play into how much you actually need. So it’s interesting to track. We track blood sugars, body fat and weight and say well, it’s dialing your macros to find those, we call it smart macros. To find the macronutrients that will stabilize your blood sugar, and make sure you maintain your lean body mass.
While if you want to lose body weight, you can macro on the calories to dial that in as well, but generally just prioritizing nutrient dense whole foods is a high priority that will oftentimes manage, help you manage the rest of those things.
Balance as you mentioned, right?
Sorry, what was that?
Balance as you mentioned from the very beginning.
Yeah, yeah, and balancing it at a micronutrient level which I think is fascinating. I hope a lot of people find that interesting and want to chase that. So once you look after getting enough of those micronutrients of meeting your daily requirements, then a lot of the other things work out.
So I’m wondering what are some of the hidden gem keto friendly foods, like powerhouses that have a lot of micronutrients in them that you just recommend. Maybe the top five foods that people should consider adding into their diet to optimize their nutrients.
Yeah. I suppose fatty fish that you’ve found to be quite good if you’re on a ketogenic diet, and trying to transition from a really highly processed diet. A lot of people don’t love fish, but then the fatty steak, anything seafood, the Mussels, oysters are going to be amazing. A lot of people don’t like organ meats, but the muscles and liver and those sort of things really help optimize your micronutrients. Any green leafy vegetables, we eat a lot of spinach and broccoli and bok choy, and those sorts of things which will help bring in the vitamins and minerals without giving a lot of carbohydrates. So for most people, they don’t need to worry too much about the carbohydrates from that. There’s plenty of fiber which basically cancels out the carbohydrates.
So you mentioned a few times fiber cancels out for satiety, but are there some types of fiber though that just aren’t really fiber?
Yeah, yeah. A lot of people with the processed packaged products, we’ll put in early two grams of net carbs. If you look at all the ingredients, the fill of fibers, which don’t really, aren’t real fiber. They’re not the fiber that comes with the green veggies, it’s inulin fiber and all the different things that are put in there to fill it up. Interestingly, type one seemed to need to dose insulin for those fibers that are on the label, but the fibers that come with those, don’t worry about the fiber in lettuce and spinach and bok choy and those sorts of things that I don’t think you need to worry about that.
So basically real food fiber is actually fiber, and processed food “fiber”, I’ll put it in quotes, is basically starch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’d count that if you’re accounting total carbs and net carbs. There’s an ongoing debate there, but my position is you would count the added fiber but the real fiber that comes with whole food you wouldn’t count that, especially because if you take a total carbs approach to eliminate all fiber from all you minimize the green veggies and therefore, minimize all your important micronutrients.
Yeah. So you have kids?
Yeah, yeah. 12 and 13, they eat a lot and so that’s a fascinating insight into nutrition and what growing kids want.
How is balance in a family with kids?
Yeah, yeah, they eat with us and they know what good food is. My 12 year old son is in the kitchen at the moment cooking, he’s got a bunch of mints that he’s trying to cook up and be healthy. At the same time, it’s fascinating to watch particularly the son who’s just a growing little pre-pubescent machine at the moment. If he has the opportunity to see sausage rolls or donuts, he goes into this feeding frenzy and it’s just amazing. Even myself with all the knowledge, if you’re exposed to those processed foods that have combination of fat and carbohydrates together, like donuts, and cakes, and sausage rolls, we just can’t turn off. We just want more, but at home we tend to eat fairly well and we all eat similar things.
I’ll probably [inaudible 00:26:30] for the higher protein because I go to the gym fairly regularly, and want to recover from that. The kids are more, they’ll eat some potatoes and those sort of things because it’s cheap. To be honest nutrient dense, higher protein, lower prestos diet is not always the cheapest, but it’s worth it. It’s a good investment because we see when the kids eat crappy colored processed food, they just turn into different people. Yeah, it’s sad to watch say okay, it’s worth the investment in the kids.
Yeah, yeah. My son, my oldest child is 13 years old and he’s athlete too, and I’m trying to educate him and he see my world, the ketogenic lifestyle and et cetera and it’s influence him. Many people asking me this question, “Andre, how about your kids?” I had a really good experiment with them few years ago when we started in the family approaching with fitting kids as we do as I do. I had a really interesting result. So it was three years ago, I have right now six years old daughter, nine years old daughter and 13 years old son. So about three years ago, the two of them were going to the school. So I put them on really strict ketogenic diet even without feeding them breakfast. So we’re going to the school eating first meal of the day, probably three hours later without having any issues.
We didn’t feel really hungry when they’re waking up. So three weeks later, I got a call from a teacher of my son and saying, “What do you do with your son?” “What do you mean?” He’s listening, you know what he see like he’s very different. My wife was laughing, so he’s very active person. I would say hyperactive and yeah, he stabilized, he started listening. Since that time, his performance in sport in school changed completely.
So much better?
Yeah, of course as you mentioned, when he see donuts or something else, it’s so addictive. It has to do with many things in our brain. We regret this, but he understand his process in his body right now, what’s going on. He actually understand when to eat properly in a way.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, it’s interesting. We can hack the satiety index for people who are growing or athletes who need more food, by understanding what helps us to eat less and more. We can say let’s add in your case, more healthy fats from whole fat food. No need to fear the high fat food and we can increase that to help them grow and give them plenty of protein.
Totally, yeah. Cool.
I love both of your examples too, because so many times women follow a keto diet for weight loss and they think it’s a diet that is not safe for kids to follow. You’re both giving examples of how, it shows how healthy it is for them to eat lower carb and more nutrient dense foods. It’s very safe.
Totally. My kids are not suffering a grain deficiency and it seems that whenever we, my daughter experiences major gut issues when she gets a big exposure to gluten, and as said my son, he just goes hyper when is anything processed or food colors. His brain like Andre’s doesn’t think as well. So it’s amazing to see, it’s worth the investment for us. So yeah, there’s definitely no grain deficiency and definitely improvements, and benefits in giving them whole food, real food, healthy food.
What do you think about the idea, some people say, “Well, I don’t want to deprive my kids of all those sugary carby foods, it’s their childhood. Let them be kids.”?
Yeah, wow. Andre, what do you think?
Well, I have one answer. I grew up in a society where we didn’t have that much of processed foods. I would say we didn’t have at all processed food to be honest with you. I’m originally from East Europe and all we had this four seasons, we didn’t eat fruits during the winter. We had like around three months when no fruits available. [inaudible 00:31:37]. All we ate was meat and fermented food, which is big part of my culture where I’m originally from. This is completely different topic to discuss. So I strongly believe what you give to kids today, it’s like building a house. If you give them a good strong foundation which is actually from the day one where they were, even when they not born yet, it’s also important with mother eating.
So this foundation is what we’re talking about right now. I think if you want to give your kids good childhood, you want to give them a good health with foundation you’re feeding them. On sometime, I do strongly believe you want to give them all tools to survive in the society. One of them is educating them. I believe you can [inaudible 00:32:40] the stone with the water when you’re consciously expressing yourself with the proper knowledge, proper information, trying to find a way for them to understand why. So this is my understanding.
Yeah, totally. Kids will come across junk food, but then they eat it and you go, “Well, how do you feel now?” They say not really good and they see why now, and they’re not tempted as much when we go down the lolly aisle of the supermarket. They just go, “Dad, I live with you guys and we understand, we get it.” So yeah.
I love both of that. I feel the same way, Andrea, that kids deserve a solid foundation. They’re building their bodies that they have to live with the rest of their lives, and so I feel like it’s even more important to give them high quality, nutrient dense foods and letting them choose what makes them feel good. Empowering them, well how do you feel after you eat that? They don’t like to feel bad, right? So they’ll make different choices based on that, just because kids are smart. So they want to feel good, they can tell the difference in the way they feel.
Yeah, definitely. Well, another aspect of this is modern adult people, or let’s say family people. Looks like majority of modern society don’t want to feel uncomfortable, and they are looking for more convenient way to live life and one of them is cooking. People tend to make decision, I’d rather go and spend time with my kids being in a fast food restaurant not cooking. They’re making all the time these excuses. This what I’ve found by having conversation with different families, and they ending up having different situation with kids. Of course one of them will be health issues. So when we come back to this question, I think it’s very important to educate parents also. Why it’s important to cook. Sometimes even just cooking fresh food without even ketogenic approach to be honest, people can change their life and then slightly move to the different aspects.
Yeah, totally agree.
Yeah. So I like this question to have keto orientated families. When it comes to meal frequency, Carole mentioned that you have some interesting data.
Yeah. We stumbled across a batch of data from 500,000 people, sorry 500,000 days for about 10,000 people who had recorded for more than two months in my fitness pal. My partner programming the Nutrient Optimiser sent it to me, and did a lot of number crunching and flicked it to me. We were analyzing it, trying to answer those obvious questions that a lot of people argue about what macros work for most people to help them eat less or eat more, and how many meals a day, and which meals. It’s really interesting data and I suppose what we’ve found is that two meals a day, if you’re trying to eat less seems to work well. One meal a day is good but not as good as two meals a day.
I think what happens there is that it’s when you have that one meal a day, you just tend to reward yourself, and it’s hard to limit and potentially you may overeat at that one meal a day, but you can quite reasonably get in two meals a day of a solid amount of protein without having to make it really refined energy dense food, because at that point when you’re really hungry, you just reach … I’ll reach for the peanut butter and the cream and I’m just like I’ve deprived myself for the day. I’m just going to keep on eating because I’ve been so good. For me, I found too that that approach didn’t work but I think if you’re having a couple of robust solid meals a day, that works well and tends to be eating earlier in the day seems to work better. That I think recent study from [inaudible 00:37:29] found that most people eat their required calories for maintenance by about 6:30 in the evening, but most people continue to eat as long as they’re awake.
It’s those calories eaten at night that tend to be easy to, you’ll reach for the bag of chips or the comfort food in front of Netflix. If you start the day with a robust higher protein meal, you’re more likely to not be ravenously hungry later in the day, and store that fat later in the day. I think a lot of people find it more convenient if they’re not trying to lose weight to eat later in the day with the family, and I admit a tad but it seems from the studies in my data analysis from The My Fitness Pal limitations they may have that earlier breakfast and lunch ideally. We don’t live in a perfect world but that seems to be the optimal approach I think. To be honest, it’s hard to do that.
It’s hard to not have that family meal or have a smaller final family meal, and get up in the morning and prepare something that’s got a solid amount of protein and energy to start the day, but I think that seems to be the way that tends to be more satiating, and it help our bodies to crave less food overall.
How about training in the morning? In a fasted mode? To have the meal after the training.
Yeah, that’s the protein eating after the … That’s what I tend to do because I don’t wake up feeling really hungry. So I go to the gym at 5:00 and have some protein after that. I think if you’re trying to restrict overall on a Luis from Ketogains advocates, like a protein coffee or something to start the day before you go training so that by the time you finished your training, the amino acids are available to help build your muscle when you need the repair. So it takes some time to digest and by the time you need that repair at the end of your workout, the amino acids are there. So for me, I’m not quite that finely tuned. I tend to have just naturally through habit, maybe more food at night so I’m starving hungry in the morning. I think if I was trying to restrict overall, maybe prioritizing your food around the workouts like you’re inferring is a really good idea.
What about beverages?
Beverages? I like coffee.
I guess I need a question about that. I’m wondering in your research and data analysis, what pitfalls do you see are common with the beverages, especially the ones that are the most popular on a keto diet. Sometimes people think they need like this high fat coffee, hight fat tea and things like that to be on a ketogenic diet. What insights do you have in your analysis of nutrients related to that?
I suppose personally, I’m not really afraid of artificially sweetened beverages for people that deal with them. Okay, I think you mentioned before that it’s best to get rid of them completely initially, as you learn to sense the real taste of real food. It’s a good thing to go okay, I can taste food, I can taste the nutrients and you’re more attracted to real whole foods. If you get rid of the artificial sweeteners, you get a better chance of letting your taste buds do what they’re meant to which is related to nutrition. A lot of people do well if they start out with a high fat bulletproof coffee introduction to keto. I think that can be helpful to transition them off a really high processed food diet. If once the blood sugar stabilize, once the insulin levels stabilized, once they hunger normalizes, then I think continuing down that path of going, okay, I’ve plateaued, I’m going to have more bulletproof coffee because that’s what drives my ketones up, and that’s what I think leads me to fat loss, doesn’t work for a lot of people, didn’t work for me.
I got to a point where I went, “Gees.” Looked in the mirror, I’m gaining weight. I’m going to know something about nutrition, but maybe if I have more bulletproof coffee, I’ll drive my ketones up and lose fat. It just didn’t work for me and I know it’s not worked for a lot of people, and I suppose I’ve had a fair bit of frustration and maybe anger about that. So I’ve put that into analysis and looking at what optimum ketone levels are, which I suppose people who are really healthy and especially who have been doing a low carb ketogenic diet, maybe athletes, tend to have lower blood sugars, lower ketones, lower triglycerides overall. So a healthy metabolism is one that doesn’t need a lot of fuel floating in the system. It can access the fat as required, and you don’t need really high ketones just like you don’t need high blood sugars all the time.
So if you’re stalled, probably adding more fat is a bad strategy. Maybe looking at ways you can reduce the added fat, so you can find ways to let the fat come from your belly and where you want it to come off is a good thing while keeping enough protein to feed your lean muscle mass, and maintain that lean muscle mass is a great idea. At least in my experience and my research, I know there’s plenty of the incidents full of conflicting ideas about that but that’s what my data has driven me to.
Yeah. It looks like what you’re saying has to do with insulin control where again, coming back to the topic we started. You want to control your insulin with every time you eat something, and the best strategy would be yeah, everything is very individually for every person in the nutrition sense, but overall general rule, we want to know how to control the insulin because this is what caused probably the problem to many people.
Yeah, definitely. Lowering your carbohydrates and having adequate protein, it’s really hard to eat too much protein I think, and having not fearing fat is a really good strategy to stabilize your overall insulin. In the end, insulin is somewhat proportional to your overall energy intake. So if fat does drive up insulin, if you’ve heard of the personal fat threshold, Roy Taylor in the UK did some fascinating research. Looking at the personal fat threshold is you get to a point where your body fat stores are full, and that’s different for different people. Some people can be quite lean but still be diabetic to the point that the fat overflows, and they get too much energy in their blood in the form of high blood glucose, and high ketones, and high triglycerides and at that point, you’ve exceeded your personal fat threshold and you’re diabetic.
Some people can store a whole lot more energy in their fat stores before they become fully blown diabetic, but you have to get to the point of reducing your overall energy intake so your fat stores aren’t over full, and the excess energy flows into your bloodstream which is diabetes and metabolic syndrome. So I think controlling insulin is really fascinating, but I think maybe controlling satiety and overall finding a way that helps you to control overall energy intake is even more important, and maybe even more upstream than focusing on blood glucose or insulin. I think satiety maybe even a higher priority and that’s why I’m a little bit amped about it at the moment.
I love that you brought up that personal fat threshold theory hypothesis, because it’s the opposite of what a lot of people are looking at. So I know it’s a little controversial or maybe a lot where most people say, “Well, insulin is too high, that’s what’s making me fat.” Whereas the personal fat threshold says that you’re too fat, that’s why your insulin is too high. [inaudible 00:46:18], it brings down your insulin. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Yeah. I suppose I was enchanted being married to a type one diabetic, I thought that if we could just eat more fat and less carbohydrates that’d be less insulin and I’d lose weight like a type one diabetic. If you don’t have insulin basically, all your body fat stores flow out into your bloodstream and you see those kids that have uncontrolled in the 20s and they become, they lose all their fat, they lose all their muscle and they die which is really awful. When they inject insulin, they quickly hold onto it and gain it back. So really insulin is like holding a net. It’s like a net that holds your fat stores on it. It’s like a control of the break of your liver that lets the energy from your fat stores flow into your bloodstream, but at the same time, we’re not all type one diabetics.
In a type one diabetic, you’re going to overdose insulin, and that rollercoaster experience really means you end up having too much insulin. The fact that you can’t control the carbohydrate insulin dose means that most, a lot of type one diabetics on a high carbohydrate diet end up overdosing, and end up gaining weight due to the excess insulin. In our body, a pancreas doesn’t, I don’t think produces more insulin that needs to hold back the energy you are consuming. I think that’s a fundamental difference that you need to, a lot of people need to keep in mind is that your pancreas won’t inject more insulin than you need to hold back the energy that’s coming in from your diet. So the fundamental primary thing, is to find a way that you’re not eating more energy than you need, that will drive you insulin high, that will leave you obese and with that excess energy flowing into bloodstream.
So yeah, it’s just a different way to look at it, but I think we need to differentiate between type one diabetics who are injecting insulin, and people who are producing enough insulin to hold back the energy coming from their diet.
Very interesting. Yeah, so maybe we can talk a little bit more about the practical applications for this conversation. How you suggest people to practically apply it.
Yeah. If you want it to break it down to just the macronutrients perspective, not getting adequate protein. I think most people tend to get adequate protein, just the appetite drives them to get adequate protein, getting foods to contain enough fiber which is basically just eating whole foods, not being afraid of vegetables. I think steering away from processed carbohydrates which is just easy to eat, especially when they’re combined with excess fat. Keep in mind like if you’re diabetic, you need to stabilize the blood sugars. Having more fat will definitely help stabilize your blood sugars and transition you away from a high carbohydrate processed diet. Once you get to that point of stabilized on a low carbohydrate diet, look at whether you maybe need to increase your protein and fiber, but decrease your added fat, refined fat to maybe let some body fat come from your body fat stores.
That’s from a macronutrient point of view, but if you want to look at it from a micronutrient point of view, just the Nutrient Optimiser is a tool we’ve developed to analyze your diet, and look at which foods you need to eat more of to get the potassium, and vitamin B, and Magnesium, and selenium, and whatever you’re currently missing from your diet. So generally if you focus on those foods, you tend to have improved satiety, adequate protein, plenty of fiber and all those things that tend to work out as I mentioned before. Then we add the overlay of insulin loads. So if you do have diabetes to some degree, we prioritize stabilizing your blood sugars with a lower insulin load diet.
Great. Anything else you wanted to ask Andre? Did we miss anything?
It’s been a bit of a brain dump, but-
Yeah, yeah but is there anything else-
Yeah, the only thing that-
Yeah. I think if people who listening we touched slightly type one diabetes, what would you say for type two diabetes?
It’s a similar process of initially using a lower insulin load diet to stabilize your blood sugars. Then once you get to that point, you can then focus on that high nutrient density and decide if you need to lose weight. A lot of type twos do need to lose weight because having over full fat stores, and exceeding it personal fat threshold is very fundamental to diabetes basically. I think the cause of diabetes is having fat stores that are over full to the point that the excess energy flows into your bloodstream. So at that point, find a way to optimize your diet and refine your diet, generally eating health foods that are minimally processed to help you work within your personal fat threshold. Basically, find a way to eat a little bit less energy that’ll help stabilize your blood sugars.
I suppose that’s why I’m so motivated hanging around people like Ted Naiman and Luis and Robb Wolf and getting my head around all that. Realizing that the metabolic health is so important to how I think, and how I feel, and how I look in my long term and short term quality of life. So I’m really passionate about it, and I’m trying to put it into actual load time by I do a lot of thinking and writing about it, but putting it into action is a whole different thing. I’m trying my best and it’s a really fun journey and I think it’s really, really, really important and not just to a personal health as a community, but also our economic health and wealth. The current climate is just, food environment is just driving spiraling medical costs that are going to bankrupt us in the very short term. We can’t keep up with the spiraling obesity crisis that is very, very, very expensive in the medical system.
We can’t continue to afford to pay for people being captivated by the modern food environment that just leaves them powerless to not overeat. Like we talked about our kids, when you throw donuts in front of them, there’s a very primal urge to chow them down and they have no off switch. So I’m trying to find that off switch, or empower people with knowledge to find that off switch to enable them to eat a little bit less and control the hunger, and give them the nutrients to thrive and be empowered by food.
Yeah, totally. Another thing I’m always saying, we discussing about food, about hormone gaze, but I’m always saying move your body also. It’s so important. People are like, “Gym, I need to go to the gym. I need time.” I’m saying you know what, actually you don’t need to go to the gym. We pretty much have everything we need in our house. You just need to do a few simple things like just start implementing working every single day. Lifting, carrying, pushing, this is what we need to do in order to have a balance. We don’t need to do this very often, and also moving our bodies crucial competence into the balance game as we mentioned.
Yeah, totally. It’s once you lose your muscle mass as you get older, it’s the muscle that burns the fat and the sugar that keeps your blood sugar stable. So many people get to 70 and they’re weak, and they’re frail and they fall over and break their hip and never get up again. It’s very sad and that’s just how people tend to perish in their older age, and to invest in high level of muscle mass and manage that as a priority now is really an investment in your long term retirement fund of having a good level of muscle mass, so you can age well and live a long high quality life.
Yeah, totally. Awesome.
Lovely. Well, I think we’re ready to wrap this up, aren’t we fellows?
It’s been fun.
Yeah. Thank you so much for all your information, and all your wisdom and tips. We’ve got a lot of these engineering minds that are moving into this nutritional space, and you guys bring us new perspective and approaches to old nutrition information too. So my final question here for you is going to be, this is your final day on earth. The meteors coming at us all, we’re all going to be wiped out. What are you going to pick as your final meal?
Wow. I was going to say the donuts I’ve been holding off on, I don’t know. Just enjoy your food at that point, to do whatever you love. I do just enjoy salmon and steak and actually enjoy spinach. That makes me feel really good and I love that. So I do enjoy eating this way, and spinach mashes, salmon steak. I love it so yeah.
A big [inaudible 00:57:03] it sounds like.
I actually lost my taste for donuts.
Yeah, yeah, that’s funny because you may try it and you’re like, “That’s not even good.”
Yeah, [inaudible 00:57:15].
So where people can find your journey and read more? What is the URL of your blog?
Yeah, I’m optimisingnutrition.com, which Carole will tell you is the British spelling with an S but if you google optimizing nutrition, there’s a blog where a chronicle of my learnings over the last two or three years, a lot of words. Then there’s Nutrient Optimiser which I’ve tried to distill all those learnings into a program, where you can get some suggest meals and suggested foods. It takes you through how you can build new habits. A lot of us have this knowledge, but how do we build new habits to actually stick, starting from the fundamentals and moving from basically buy snack at a bio hacker along that journey from simple to more complex if you need it. Then there’s a Facebook group, Marty Kendall’s Nutrient Optimiser and also Optimising Nutrition is another Facebook group with about 8,000 people that are really smart and I’ve learned a lot from. So that’s where we share all the controversial new research and chat about that. So yeah, but I’d love you to check it out Nutrient Optimiser and check out the free report.
Awesome. Thank you.
Thank you so much for being here, Marty. Thank you for taking the time so early in your day. You probably have to get off to work now, don’t you?
Saturday I’ll be here, we’re ahead of you guys.
A whole day ahead, all right.
One day ahead.
You’ll never catch up.
Well, thank you again for being here. Everyone, thanks for watching/listening.
Maria Emmerich’s newest keto cookbook, Keto Comfort Foods, releases on May 2, 2017, and I got an advanced copy from my publisher! So my son and I decided to do our weekly Keto Chat LIVE Facebook video of us making the Chicken Pot Pies from the cookbook, and you can watch it here.
prep time:10 minutes, plus 1 hour to chill dough, if needed
cook time:15 minutes yield:4 servings
1¾ cups shredded mozzarella cheese
2 tablespoons unsalted butter
1 large egg, beaten
¾ cup blanched almond flour
¹⁄₈ teaspoon fine sea salt
2 tablespoons unsalted butter
¼ cup diced celery
¼ cup diced onions
¼ teaspoon minced fresh oregano
¼ teaspoon minced fresh thyme
¼ teaspoon fine sea salt
3 boneless, skinless chicken thighs, cut into ¼-inch pieces
4 ounces cream cheese (½ cup), softened
½ cup chicken bone broth, homemade (page 356) or store-bought
Fresh thyme sprigs
Preheat the oven to 425°F.
To make the dough, place the mozzarella and butter in a microwave-safe bowl and microwave for 1 to 2 minutes, until the cheese is entirely melted. Stir well. Add the egg and combine well using a hand mixer. Add the almond flour and salt and combine well with the mixer. Use your hands and work it like a traditional dough, kneading for about 3 minutes. (Note: If the dough is too sticky, chill it in the refrigerator for an hour or overnight.)
While the dough is chilling, make the filling: Melt the butter in a sauté pan over medium heat. Add the celery, onions, herbs, and salt and cook until the veggies are soft, about 4 minutes. Add the chicken and sauté until cooked through, about 4 more minutes. Add the cream cheese and stir until well combined. While stirring, slowly pour in the broth. Divide among four 14-ounce oven-safe bowls or ramekins.
Grease a piece of parchment paper. Place one-quarter of the dough on the greased parchment and pat it out with your hands to form a small circle, slightly larger than the diameter of the bowls or ramekins you’re using. Repeat with the remaining dough. Place a circle of dough on top of each filled bowl or ramekin. Seal each pie closed by crimping the dough around the edge with your fingers.
Place the bowls on a rimmed baking sheet and place in the oven. Bake for 15 to 20 minutes, until the pies are golden brown and the dough is fully cooked. Serve the pies garnished with fresh thyme.
Store extras in an airtight container in the refrigerator for up to 3 days. Reheat on a rimmed baking sheet in a preheated 350°F oven for 5 minutes or until warmed through.
Nutritional info, per pie(per pie) nutritional info (per pie)
You love it or you hate it. So this is a recipe for those of you that love it. The rest of you might want to check out my Thanksgiving 2016 Recipe Round-up post instead…
Egg nog is actually very easy to make keto because the basic ingredients are eggs and cream. Before a couple of years ago, I’d only had store-bought egg nog is super high in sugar and filled with fake-food thickeners to avoid all those “bad” foods like eggs and heavy cream (oh, and probably to save a bunch of money for the food manufacturers). I had no idea that it was something you could make at home! And like most things made at home, it puts store-bought to shame. Most recipes use milk for a good portion of the liquid, but when you’re on a low carb, high fat diet, why not go all out and use all heavy cream?
4 large eggs
1/3 cup Swerve confectioners style sweetener
3 cups heavy cream
3 ounce rum (optional – substitute 1 teaspoon rum extract for non-alcoholic version)
1 teaspoon nutmeg
Separate eggs and place egg yolks into the bowl of a stand mixer. Beat for a few minutes, until light in color. Gradually add the Swerve and continue beating until dissolved. Add the cream, rum (or rum extract) and nutmeg, and stir to combine. Pour this mixture into a pitcher or large bowl.
In cleaned and dried bowl of the stand mixer, add egg whites and beat to soft peaks. Whisk the egg whites into the egg yolk mixture.
Chill and serve.
Yield: 6 servings
Macros: 491 calories, 46.6 g fat, 7.6 g protein, 3.8 g carbs