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Tom Naughton began his professional life as a writer and editor for Family Safety & Health magazine. In the many years since, he’s worked as a freelance writer, a touring standup comedian and a software programmer. Fat Head, his humorous documentary about the lousy health advice handed down from official sources, has been seen on Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime, as well as on television networks in several countries. His speeches and other health-related videos have been viewed by millions of people online.

Tom now lives on a small hobby farm with one wife, two daughters, two dogs, one cat, and dozens of chickens.

• Link to the blog:
www.fathead-movie.com

• Link to the Fat Head Kids book:
https://tinyurl.com/mhqtrf7

• Link to the Fat Head Kids film:
https://tinyurl.com/yanxf97r

Transcript:

Hey, welcome everyone to another episode of Keto Chat. I am your host, Carole Freeman. And I’m here today. I’m really excited, so excited. I’m here with Tom Naughton. We met on a cruise ship actually, and he has a very interesting backstory about a cruise ship that we’ll talk about too. I met him on the low carb cruise in the middle of the whatever, Gulf of Mexico or something like that. So anyways, I’m so excited to have you here. Let me just do a quick little intro of who you are, and we’ll dive in to chat more. Tom Naughton began his professional life as a writer and editor for family safety and health magazine. And the many years since, he’s worked as a freelance writer, a touring standup comedian and a software programmer, Fat Head. That’s how you guys probably know him. Fat Head is his humorous documentary about the lousy health advice handed down from official sources.

It’s been seen on Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon prime, as well as television networks in several countries. His speeches and other health related videos have been viewed by millions of people online. Tom now lives on a small hobby farm with his one wife, two daughters, two dogs, one cat and dozens of chickens. Welcome, Tom. I’m so excited you’re here.

I’m glad to be here.

Oh, gosh. Where do we start? You have a really interesting background. I’m going to just say that as a writer and editor for family and safety and health magazines, that sounds like super boring. Was that [crosstalk 00:01:45].

No, it wasn’t boring. It’s just I look back and keep in mind when this was, it was the early 80s. And as I explained when I was speaking to the Weston A. Price Foundation this weekend, I was one of the people writing articles telling you to cut back on saturated fat and cholesterol. That’s what I believed at the time as so many of us did. I look back now and go, “Oh, yeah, I was part of the problem, awesome.”

Oh, so you were an early nutrition writer is what you were?

Well, I mean, we wrote about a lot of safety and health issues, but health, I mean, yeah, of course nutrition was a big part of it. And we were all singing from the USDA’s hymn book at the time.

Oh, okay. And that was back when you probably have to type it up and mail it in or something like that to get in-

I was actually working there when we went from typewriters to finally getting a computer, yes.

Wow, I remember mid 80s, my mom did a mailing newsletter thing. So this was back in the back of a magazine. She could put an ad where it’s like send and S-A-S-E is Self Addressed Stamped Envelope and a dollar. And she would a newsletter. And I remember the process from the garage she had of typing it out on typewriters and cutting out the little paragraphs and gluing them on and then make copies of them.

That all sounds very familiar. I worked at a college newspaper and we printed stuff out. Then they sliced it up, we literally created the pages by sticking the text where it was going to go.

Wow, yeah. We’ve come so far, technology is so fun. Well, how did you get into standup comedy? I mean, it’s so fun because that’s kind of my hobby I’ve taken up in this year. How’d you get into that?

Well, honestly, I got into that partly because I could not keep a band together. I had been in bands throughout college and I was all into music at the time, but I found out trying to keep a band together, you’re constantly running into someone’s drug problem, girlfriend problem, commitment problem. And after I went to a gig, it wasn’t even a band, we were going to do a smothers brothers type thing, little singing comedy duo. And my partner who had not shown any indication of this showed up for the performance drunk, and it was awful. I thought, now what could I do where other people can’t screw it up for me? So almost by process of elimination, I decided I would try standup. And I was already 30 by then, this is after years of trying other things. It was an experience as you know, since you’re trying it now.

Where did you start out doing comedy?

I went to amateur nights, and I was fortunate that at the time I lived in Chicago and there were a lot of places where you could do amateur night. I went in and I fell flat on my face, and I realized I’m not as good at this as I thought I was going to be. But I kept working at it, kept changing material and finally got that all important first professional gig about a year after I’d started.

Okay, okay. The realization I had, I’m not trying to do this as a career thankfully because I’ve realized that trying to make a living at standup comedy is even harder than trying to be a paid actor. There’s just a lot of hoops to jump through and years and years of trying to work at it. So my first paid gig was $35 for 20 minutes of my time and I was like, “Oh, man, this is never going to pay off.”

Well, I did get to where I was making a living at it, but keep in mind, I didn’t have a family to support it at the time. And even then eventually the last thing I did was work crew ships, which paid very, very well. And you actually can support a family if you don’t mind being gone all the time. And I just finally couldn’t take the travel anymore, so I kind of hung up the comedy spurs and made Fat Head really. So it all worked out.

Yeah. Well, let’s talk about Fat Head, how long from concept to what was … I imagine, were you inspired by Morgan Spurlock? Is that where that came from or?

No. I think you’ll relate to this. I was living in LA at the time, and going to auditions, etc, etc. And I was thinking, I want to just produce my own show, just get my own thing going. And what I’d had in mind for a long time was a show I was going to call in defense of common sense, which is common sense, but funny guy looks at issues of the day. I thought, all right, let’s just shoot the pilot episode myself and see if I can use that to pitch this thing. So the first episode was going to be about how we treat fat people in American society. It’s one of the few groups you can really be quite bigoted towards and still get away with it. I started doing research for that episode. I finally watched Super Size Me, which I hadn’t seen as part of my research for that.

And by the time I was done watching it, I thought, “Well, this guy’s entertaining, but he’s also full of,” you know what. So then it became, I’m going to shoot my own documentary in response. And then as I was researching that, it just kept evolving, and it eventually became what it is now.

So is that how you started a low carb approach yourself then is researching for the movie or were you following the-

I would say researching the movie is what really convinced me of a low carb approach. I mean, I had struggled with my weight for most of my adult life. And I did lose some significant weight when I went on the zone diet, which is not what you and I would call low carb, but it’s much lower than what most people eat. And I did have some success with that than when I started really jumping into research. And I did it, and then I kind of went off of it. When I started making Fat Head, I wasn’t doing anything in particular. And then when I started doing the research after a while, it took me a while to really believe saturated fat is not dangerous, cholesterol is not dangerous. I was doing all this research online. And by the time I was well into the research for Fat Head, I became convinced.

Well, had you embarked on the eating experiment at that point? Were you still in the researching before-

So I did the research and I decided based on the research, I thought if I’m going to eat fast food and lose weight, the way to do that is to embrace eating the fat, but limit the carbs, which is of course the opposite of what the standard advice would have been. That’s what I did. I ate all fast food for 28 days and lost weight because I was eating double cheeseburgers, but I was limiting the buns. I didn’t have that many fries. I didn’t drink any sodas. I haven’t drank sugary soda since I was a teenager. But the research convinced me this is the way you’re going to do it.

Yeah. I watch Morgan Spurlock’s movie when it came out, and I have a background. I’ve gone to school forever in nutrition and undergrad and master’s degree in nutrition, but I didn’t come out of school with any semblance of low carb was the way. We ame out with whole foods and eat mindfully and intuitively and your body will just lead you naturally to healthy choices. The answer every night for me was always chocolate cake was what my body needs.

Yes, yes. Your intuition said this is good for me.

Yeah, yeah. It tasted great so that’s what I needed without guilt. And I’ve loved Morgan Spurlock’s movie when I saw it, whenever it came. I don’t remember what year it came out, but I thought, “Oh, my God, this is great.” And I watched Fat Head movie long before I was following keto, low carb myself. What year did the movie come out?

Super Size Me or Fat Head?

Fat Head.

We premiered it late in 2008, it officially came out available to the public in January 2009.

Okay. So that’s like right after I finished my undergrad nutrition, so I’m sure I watched it right in the middle of all my nutrition education. And it was so eyeopening to me because I believed everything in Super Size Me to be accurate. One of the questions that still sticks in my mind is where you were calculating how many calories he had to eat to gain as much weight as he’d done. And you realized he was force feeding himself and eating-

And not following his own rules. And here’s the thing, in addition to doing stand up, et cetera, et cetera, as you mentioned in my bio there, I’m also a software programmer. So you don’t want to throw bad math at me and expect me not to notice. And when his nutritionist said you’re reading 5,000 calories per day. And I thought about those rules he had set up at the beginning of the film, alarm bells, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. No way is this guy following his rules, the math doesn’t add up.

Yeah, yeah. That was really eye opening to me, and I loved your movie, was really awakening to me that I came out of a school, fantastic, near nationally recognized school, but the big focus was on you have to eat natural whole foods and organic and everything to be healthy. And your movie really pointed out the fact that let’s get the carbs out and heal the body first and then organic can be kind of the icing on the cake or the, I don’t know, bacon on the burger if we want to say it that way. You don’t need to eat organic to be healthy or to make great strides towards health. Would you mind just kind of sharing, in the 28 days, what were the health improvements that you noticed?

Well, mostly, the goal was to prove that I could lose weight on this diet, which I did. And at the time, keep in mind this has been an ongoing journey for me too, had I thought of it, I would have may be tested fasting blood sugar before and after, but I didn’t. I did test cholesterol, cholesterol went down. It was really Dr. Mike Eades who told me because this idea that fat doesn’t cause cholesterol problems, still kinda of new to me. And he said when I was interviewing him, and this is the section of the film where I did the diet after the diet. Instead of the fast food diet I went on, I called it in the film the saturated fat pig out diet.

He said, get a cholesterol test then eat all the cholesterol you want, eat all the saturated fat you want and then see what happens to your cholesterol. So I did, and my cholesterol profile actually improved. But on that diet, I wasn’t even eating limited hamburger buns or french fries. I just went crazy on bacon, eggs, steak, et cetera, et cetera. I suspected he was right by this point, Dr. Eades had impressed me as someone who really knows what he’s talking about, but I did still want to prove it for myself.

All right. What kind of impact have you had with this movie? I’m sure you get letters and emails from people all around the world.

I do. And when it first started happening early on, I have to be honest, I was shocked because I thought I’m making this kind of funny I hope, reply to Super Size Me. And pointing out it was really most of the second half of the film pointing out by the way, the dietary guidelines are not based on real science. They’re wrong. That’s kind of what I thought I’d done. I’d put this out in the world, Super Size Me is full of it and the dietary guidelines are wrong. But then because I explained in the film how I’m going to lose weight by cutting the carbs, not cutting the fat. When the thing went out there and it went on Netflix and all the other places where it drew and audience, I started getting thank you emails from people around the world, “I saw your movie, I did what you did. I’ve lost 50 pounds, my blood sugars under control. Thank you so much.”

It was surprising, it was humbling, I didn’t expect that. I was at the Weston A. price conference as a speaker this weekend and a woman at the registration desk told me, she said, “Fat Head turned my life around.” I never ever expected to hear stuff like that.

That’s amazing. The great thing about today’s day and age is that the digital stuff is this going to be out there forever.

Well, I think it’s a wonderful time to be alive and be doing stuff like this. Even if I thought of Fat Head say 30 years ago, I couldn’t have gotten it made. The equipment wouldn’t have existed for me to make it myself. And even if I somehow hired a crew and got it made, it probably wouldn’t have gone anywhere. How would you distribute it? Whereas these days, the equipment is cheap, there are so many more options for getting things out there, which is why I think we’re seeing this explosion of information, alternative voices outside the usual USDA nonsense. And I think that’s what’s turning things around.

Yeah. You’re also known for the Fat Head pizza dough.

I shouldn’t be, but yes.

Did you steal the recipe and then-

Honestly, I’m embarrassed that everybody calls this the Fat Head pizza now because I had nothing to do with it. Let me back up, my nephew took a recipe from Cookies Creations. I’m going to say it loud and clear, Cookies Creations gets the credit. I think cookies is a she. She had this pizza dough recipe, my nephew tried it. He liked it, he tweaked it a tiny bit. And then he told my brother, this makes really good pizza. He served at one night for dinner. My brother told me this is really good pizza. So I said, “Why don’t you have Eric, my nephew put that recipe on the blog?” So he did. And out of all the blog posts that have ever gone on my site, it’s the one I didn’t write, my nephew wrote it, that has the most hits, the most comments. And now people all over the world are calling this Fat Head pizza. And Tom Naughton’s Fat Head pizza, I did not create it, I deserve no credit.

And so, it wasn’t even called fennel pizza, but the association with the blog is where the name came from there or-

Right. And now everybody is calling it Fat Head pizza. And I’m like, “Well, I’m flattered. But no, I did not create this I just put it up there.”

Well you, you created the blog that allowed to get out there.

I guess.

It’s very popular. Well, thank you indirectly. I mean, a lot of people think they can’t do a low carb approach or it’s not sustainable because they’re going to miss all these carby things. And so, another great thing about all the technology and information overload that we have out there is that we’ve got all these the keto cookbooks that show you can pretty much make a low carb version of anything that you think you’re going to miss. And I think that’s part of part of why this low carb keto movement has blossomed so much is that because we can share all this information and we can find ways of making delicious food. You don’t have to feel like you can’t do this.

Well, and another thing, I think, it was certainly true for me, and I think it is for a lot of people. At first, you asked if you’re going low carb, you’ll probably be looking for ways to make low carb breads and cookies and et cetera, et cetera. I think what a lot of us find is that once the sugar and the flours are out of your system, it’s kind of like if you give up smoking after a while, you don’t really crave the cigarettes anymore. It finally goes away. I find that a lot of people start out with these low carb deserts, et cetera, et cetera. And over time they find, “I’m not really craving bread and sugar anymore, so I’m not looking for substitutes.”

Yes, so true. And I kind of take an opposite approach with my clients. I cut all those things out in the very beginning so that it retains their taste buds and then it makes it easier to stick with it because I find that my psychological background, I know if people are trying to find all these substitutes and keep the sweet flavor going, it just perpetuates cravings too. But yeah, it’s so true. Months in people are like, “Yeah, I don’t even miss those things anymore.”

No, no. You get to where it’s like, “Damn, you know what, I’m happy with meat and eggs and cheese and vegetables and et cetera.” I think your body finally gets back to, “Oh, this is what real food tastes like.”

Right. And now that intuitive eating and mindfulness that I was taught works when we take away the sugar and carbs, I can listen to what my body really, really wants.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a big part of why people who embrace real fats find that their appetite is controlled naturally. I’ll give you a perfect example now. I don’t need a lot of potatoes and stuff, but I’m also not, “Oh, you should never touch a carb again.” We found, for example, if my wife slices up a sweet potato and fries it in something like bacon grease or lard, it’s surprising how little of that it takes before you feel full. You eat something fried in a real fat, you get the signals and you feel full. But then if we make potato chips or hash browns or whatever and they’re fried in these nasty vegetable oils, you’re taking this stuff in, but your brain is not getting the signal, I have what I need, I have the natural fats I need. So your appetite just stays high until basically you have stuffed yourself. I think eating real foods, especially real fats, it just causes your appetite to do what it should have been doing all along, which is to regulate itself naturally.

I found this exact same thing to be true that especially saturated fats tend to be real fats, and those are so much more satiating than any kind of oil. What kind of ripples in your personal life of after doing this movie and then following mostly a low carb approach? What kind of ripples have you seen impact in your own personal and family, friends, close friends?

Obviously, the biggest ripple in my personal life is that I turned 60 a week ago and I don’t feel old or tired. My energy is high, my strength is good. My health is good, I’m rarely sick. And I work with a lot of people in kind of my same age range, and I don’t think it’s all that common to feel as good at 60 as you did it 40 or 30. In fact, I would say I probably feel better than I did at 30 because I was not on a good diet. Biggest ripple for me is, “Hey, it’s great to be 60 years old and still feel excited and happy and healthy and energetic.” And I’m not taking any prescription drugs, I don’t feel decrepit. I mean, that’s a great personal ripple.

Yeah, yeah, that’s fantastic. Congratulations, you look fantastic. In person too, I saw you in person and you don’t … I mean, low carb ends up being like kind of turns the clock back at least 10 years for most people.

I’ve noticed that, and I would say the same thing to Weston A. Price Foundation diet, which is not necessarily low carb, but it’s real food and it’s absolutely real fat. And I noticed the same thing when I was talking to people this weekend, we found that three of us at our dinner table were all born in 1958, we were all 60. And in my humble opinion, not a one of us looked it.

Nice. Well, congratulations. Happy birthday, whenever that was.

It was last Wednesday, but thank you.

Okay. Oh, hey, I am a November birthday as well. So I think November birthdays are the best, myself.

Clearly, this is true.

Oh, nice. Okay. So fat had was a movie. You’ve got another project that’s out right now too.

Yeah, I would say two projects really. My wife and I decided, well, let me back up a little bit. So I told you I was surprised by this reaction to Fat Head and hearing from people all over the world. Here’s one that really surprised me. A stunning number of parents sent me emails saying my kids love Fat Head. My son is 10 years old, he’s watched it six times. And I was thinking, “I didn’t make this for kids, I made it to be amusing and entertaining and informative.” But I think because of the kind of cartoony stuff and the humor, a lot of kids for whatever reason took to it. So my wife and I decided let’s make our next project something that is specifically for kids. Kids and up, but something kids could could latch onto.

We created book called Fat Head Kids, stuff about diet and health I wish I knew when I was your age, full of illustrations. My wife drew more than 200 cartoons for it. And then immediately as soon as we were done with the book, we took her artwork and new artwork and turned it into an animated film.

Oh, I didn’t realize there was a film to it. So where’s the film available? I got to go watch that then.

It’s not out yet, it’s going to be out December 4th or 8th, I forget. I think it’s December 4th. But if you go to Amazon now and you type Fat Head Kids movie, they’re already taking preorders.

Oh, that’s great. Well, this is perfect timing then. And so, is it fully animated?

Fully animated, fully animated. I’ll give you the reader’s digest version. We explain how food affects your health by turning the human body into a biological spaceship called the nautilus. And then that the movie is this journey aboard the nautilus. And you see how the crew is programmed to respond to messages, and the messages come from food. And then we have a couple of characters who constantly pop up to explain things. I have actual doctors and researchers pop up to explain things. They’re on our captain’s monitors there in his cockpit, they pop up on the monitors to explain things. But then we also have characters called Mr. Stop and Dr. Fishbones, the science and medical officers who pop up to explain things.

And a lot of what they’re talking about is how the ship’s engineer, a guy named Marty Metabolism who might have a Scottish accent responds to all these messages and how he has to keep the blood sugar under control, and what happens when the blood sugar goes too high, et cetera, et cetera. It’s all to explain. It’s all the stuff you and I know, it’s all the stuff we’ve talked about on the low carb cruises explained in a way this is how it affects the ship, this is how the systems have to respond. And through that, we hope to explain kind of basically how metabolism works, what makes you fat. And a lot of adults have told me, a lot of adults have emailed me after buying the book and they said, “Thank to God, you explained this at a kid level because I finally get it now.”

Oh, oh, that’s great. Yeah, so it’s for adults and kids. Adults, parents don’t give their kids enough credit. Kids are really smart, and they can understand these things. I’ve had client call, one of my ladies was talking about her grandkids and how she was noticing that basically some hypoglycemic symptoms that if they went to long after breakfast without eating, they just turned into like an evil little monster at nine years old. She was like, “Well, how do I get her to eat this? Because when she’s in that mode, she doesn’t want to eat.” And I said, “Explain it to her, explaining what’s going on, why she’s getting like this. And then empower her to be able to make the choice.” “She’s nine years old,” I said, “she will understand what you’re talking about.”

And a lot of times, kids are smarter than adults because they don’t have these hardwired locked in things in their mind that they think are true or not. And then when you empower kids with that information, they make those choices willingly because kids don’t like to feel like garbage. Kids want to feel good. You notice the difference.

They don’t want to feel like garbage, they don’t want to be overweight. And again, I had a lot of parents tell me after their kids saw Fat Head that they wanted to give up the sodas and they wanted to give up the white bread. They would say things like, “Mom, I don’t want to be fat, I want to feel good.” Of course, some kids are going to say, “I want my donuts.” But I think, it’s just like anything else. We have to put the information out there. And if they choose to act on it, they will. And I think a lot of kids will. The subtitle of the book, well, I think the full title of the book, Fat Head Kids, stuff about diet and health I wish I knew when I was your age. And I explain how I became fat as an adolescent, I developed the boy boobs. I was fat and slow. I felt like I couldn’t keep up with the other boys in sports and cetera.

And what I pound home in the book if someone had told me then what I’m going to tell, my entire life would have been different because I was almost 50 when I finally figured this stuff out. I wish somebody had told me when I was 10.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, and that brings me to another concept that I’m really passionate about is that I feel like it’s even more important for kids to eat healthy than maybe even for adults because kids are building their body that’s going to last the rest of their lives. And would you build a house with crappy foundation and say like, “Well, later on when we put the roof on, we’ll reinforce the foundation and we’ll fix the problems then”? It’s like, no, you only have good building blocks from the beginning. You want to create these eating habits that will last a lifetime instead of trying to figure out when you’re decades as an adult trying to heal yourself later.

Absolutely. And we bring that point up, exactly that point in the book. You are at the point now where your body is building a ship. Again, we turn the body into a biological starship. Your body is going to be building the ship at a faster pace now than it ever will again, you need it to be built. And as we all know, all of us who have gone through those periods of being overweight and sick and et cetera, et cetera, it is so much easier to avoid the damage in the first place than it is to try to undo the damage later. And of course, I have kids. I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old, so I’m very passionate about let’s be healthy from the beginning, not try to fix it later.

So what did they think about dad’s work and your movie? Because I know a lot of times teens will be like, “Oh, God, my dad is so embarrassing.” What’s their take on all this?

Well, fortunately they don’t think I’m embarrassing. I think to them it’s just kind of what dad does, like they’re not embarrassed, but it’s also kind of like, “Yeah, okay, dad made a movie, don’t all dads?” Well, for one thing, they’re both in it. They provided voices for the animated version. It was pretty much a family affair because my daughters did voices, my older daughter, she actually kind of sounds like I did as an adolescent, so she plays me as an adolescent. And I happen to have two nephews who are actors. They do theater guild and all that, very talented, very funny. So they did a bunch of the voices for the film. I dragged my brother in to do a couple of voices, and it was almost an entirely family cast except for our buddy, Jimmy Moore had a couple of lines in there.

Oh, cool. Oh man, are we listening for the voice cameo then?

Yeah, you’ll recognize him. You’ll know when it’s him, yeah.

Is he himself or is he playing some?

Well, no, these are all cartoon characters, so he is one of the cartoon characters. He’s one of the teenagers who taunts me as a teenager.

Oh, my gosh. I bet he loves the starship theme as well because his wife is a big Star Trek-

Oh, yeah, yeah, huge Star Trek fan.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I’m so excited to watch the movie now too. We’ll put links in the show notes for the movie and the book, the original movie. I’m sure you can still get that out there as well too. Was there anything else that you hoped I would ask about or anything else that you want to share with the world?

No. I think it’s the same, same things that we’ve all been talking about for years. Again, I’m not one of the people who goes around saying nobody should ever eat a carbohydrate again, I don’t think you are either. The message I always try to put across to people is you can go nuts with health stuff. You can drive yourself into this tizzy where you’re afraid to eat anything. I don’t think that’s necessary. I always tell people as far as I’m concerned, you get 80, maybe 90% of the benefits if you do three things, give up sugar, give up the grains and give up those awful what are called vegetable oils, they’re actually industrial seed oils. If you give those three things, you’ve given up the three things that are going to damage you the most, then you can worry about things like organic and grass fed and et cetera.

And I think all that stuff is great, but the message I want to get across to people, stop damaging yourself. That’s first and foremost. And I think that’s where a lot of people are headed. I think people are finally figuring this out. They’re figuring out that the USDA advice was never based on science. And more and more people are going online for health information. They’re going to see podcasts, they’re going to watch your show, they’re going to go to my blog, they’re going to go all these other blogs and podcasts. And in my humble opinion, we actually are turning this ship around, slowly, but we’re turning it around.

Turning the spaceship around. Well, that reminded me, one other question I want to ask too is have you experienced any backlash for criticizing the USDA food or are they just like quietly going to let that?

Well, not from them of course. As I tell my daughter who’s not on Twitter yet, that Twitter is the wild, wild west and that you’re going to run into all types. Of course, I am a target for the low fat crowd, the vegan crowd, all the people who believe that what I’m promoting is going to kill people. Honestly, I long ago decided the best way to deal with those people is to simply ignore them. They will argue endlessly. If you get into a debate with one of those people, you could not sleep for a week and the debate would still be going on. And you’re not going to change their mindset anyway. Yeah, of course, I’m a target sometimes. I don’t care, I ignore them.

Okay, good job. You’ve learned that lesson then. I think it reminds me a little bit, it could be a star ship analogy too, is like, do not engage, do not engage weapons.

That’s right. Do not engage, this battle will go on forever and no one’s going to win.

Well, Tom, thank you so much for being here, thanks for taking the time to share. I’m really excited about all your projects. And anything beyond this, do you know your next things you’re working on or are you going to let this ride for a while?

Well, I think I’ll let this ride for a while. In the last couple of years, I’ve done the book, I’ve done the film. Keep in mind we did the film with the two person crew, myself and my wife. And then I turned around and I prepared and delivered this speech to the Weston A. Price Foundation, which was a whole nother project. Not as big as a film, but it was all project. And I did just turned 60, and I said, “You know what, I’m going to take a week or two and just not think about any of it, and then I’ll decide what’s next.”

Nice, excellent, self care in there too. My closing question for you, the meteor is coming at the spaceship and it’s going to wipe us all out, it’s going to be your last day alive. What’s going to be your final meal?

Well, if I really, truly was convinced I was going to die, I might say to heck with that, I’ll eat pizza. It’s not like it’s going to affect my health. If I was just going to eat one meal and I didn’t know I was going to check out afterwards, boy, that’s a toughie. I would say surf and turf, prime rib and lobster.

I guess there’s no certainty, right? Because Armageddon, we thought the meter was going to kill us in Armageddon and then the, what is his name, Bruce Willis went and saved us again.

That’s right, that’s right.

Well, thank you again for being here. We’ve got all your contact info in the show notes. If you guys enjoyed this, give us a thumbs up. Subscribe if you want to see some more. And then hit that little bell next to subscribe if you actually want to get the notifications of new episodes we’ve got coming out. Thank you all for watching. Thanks again for being here, Tom.

My pleasure, thanks for having me.