Dr. Ifland has been creating breakthroughs in recovery from food addiction from 1999 with her first popular book to 2018 when her textbook, Processed Food Addiction: Foundations, Assessment, and Recovery was released by CRC Press.
She founded the online Addiction Reset Community (ARC) in 2016 (patent pending) www.foodaddictionreset.com. The Facebook group, ‘Food Addiction Education’ (2014) and www.foodaddictionresources.com (2014) provide free support. The Home Addiction Reset Program (HARP) is the first online live video program for withdrawal (2018). Dr. Ifland’s Meal Prep Manual is a breakthrough system to easily manage meals (2018).
Dr. Ifland is the lead author of the first scholarly description of processed food addiction and definition of addictive foods. Dr. Ifland earned her PhD in addictive nutrition at Union Institute and University (2010); her MBA at Stanford Business School (1978) and her BA in Economics and Political Science at Oberlin College (1974). She currently resides in Seattle.
Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of Keto Chat. I am your host, Carole Freeman, and I’m so excited today, I’m here with Joan Ifland. I didn’t check to make sure I’m saying it right.
It is right.
You nailed it.
All right. Oh my gosh we went all the way to Florida to meet, and it turns out that we’re neighbors here in the Seattle area, so welcome, I’m always excited when I get to have a live person in my office.
I know, yes, it is exciting.
Would you share with our viewers who you are?
Sure. I am Doctor Joan Ifland, my Doctorate is in addictive nutrition. I have been looking for a way to reliably help people get control of their food since 1996. When I started, I just gave up sugar and flour, which I feel is like a bridge keto food plan. It’s not all the way keto, but I got a lot of results from doing just that. Certainly compared to mainstream America, it is a low carb food plan at least. At least it’s a low carb food plan.
So many good things happened to me that I wrote a popular book about my family’s first three years, I did handouts, I had one on one peer consulting practice. I got on TV. I wanted everyone to know how incredible it is when you get off of processed foods. I didn’t make a dent, obviously, so I thought “I’m gonna go back to school, I’m gonna get my doctorate.” I have an MBA from Stanford, I went to a school for new fields to get my doctorate. I thought “I’m gonna be able to reach doctors if I get a doctorate, if I can be an academic.” I did that, then I wrote papers, I wrote chapters for other books, then finally, CRC Press came along and said “Would you write a textbook for us?”
I wrote the textbook for the field based on my experience and all that good research. Based on the textbook, what I learned is this is a very, very serious addiction. It’s not a garden variety addiction. It’s a lot of different substances, and it starts at conception, really. It just never lets up. We’re bombarded with cuing for it. Now, I realize that people might need at least the opportunity to get into a video chat a couple of times a day, and a conference call. We tested that out last year, it was shocking. After 23 years, I finally have a system that if somebody is struggling, they get on the keto food plan, but the cravings are still calling them, and they get on the keto food plan, but they realize that they’ve been using food to manage feelings, and now they don’t know what to do with their feelings, or that they have to reorder all their relationships, because everybody else is eating processed foods. Then a group of people who are doing the same thing, going through the same thing will really understand. That can be a game changer.
Yeah, in a good way.
Let’s start with some definitions, then. What is food addiction? There’s a lot of people that say, well, you can’t be really addicted to food, because we have to eat it. Let’s talk about it. What is food addiction?
Food addiction is a misnomer. It’s actually processed food addiction. Yes, there are people who are volume eaters, maybe they would eat a whole pile of broccoli, that’s a different condition. That’s somebody who’s stretching their stomach out to get a serotonin release. It looks a lot like food addiction, but it’s actually volume eating. You can be a volume eater and food addicted, but I think volume eating by itself, if you’re volume eating broccoli, that’s a different situations. Processed food addiction means that you just take the world of food, and you divide it in two. For alcoholism, you take the world of beverages and you divide it in two. You have alcoholic addictive beverages, you have non-alcoholic, non-addictive.
When you do that with food, boom, all of a sudden you realize it’s not about food at all, it’s about processed food like addictive substances. Sugar is not a food, the body doesn’t read sugar as a food. Even flour isn’t really a food. Gluten, it’s very problematic. Salt, yes, it’s a food additive. Processed fats like a food, or even dairy has a lot of addictive qualities, and everyone knows about caffeine. Then there are food additives, there are things we don’t even know are in the food that could be addictive. Once you have that piece of it, we’re talking about substances, broccoli, and steak, and chicken, and fish, and all those beautiful vegetables, even the starches, they’re over here with food, but sugar, flour, salt, gluten, those are over here with addictive substances. Then the world opens up. Yes, we have to have food. No, we don’t have to have addictive substances.
That’s like the difference between fresh air, and air that has cigarette smoke in it. You just divide the world into two. Then you can make sense of what is happening in the brain. You have these hyperactive craving pathways in the brain of a person who has, I call it catching, who has caught an addiction. You have hyperactive stress pathways, the frontal lobe is not working, so the higher level thinking like memory, and decision making, learning, attention span, impulse control, it’s not firing, because all of the blood is going back here to the craving pathway. The other thing in the brain of a person who has become addicted, we never, none of us ever agreed to this. This was done to us by the food industry, is that the mirror neurons will generally be picking up people who are eating processed foods, and the mirror neurons are saying “Oh, yes, everybody’s eating processed foods, you should eat processed foods, too.” That’s an addiction.
Yeah. Knowledge is not enough, is what you’re saying.
I work with a lot of people that we have to come to terms with the fact that these aren’t normal foods. They start saying to themselves, one of the pitfalls I find is that they feel, “Well, I just feel so deprived because everyone else can eat those.” Or “When can I be normal again and eat those like a normal person?”
Yes. Once people come into a video chat community, and I am able to visit with them for hours, and hours, and hours, it takes time to really get it deep on the inside that these are not food. They’re worse than cocaine. Rats will choose sugar and saccharine over cocaine and heroin. These are addictive substances, they will always hurt us. Every cigarette puff we take hurts us, and at some point, people do get it deep on the inside “Oh, every bite really hurts people.”
Instead of wanting to copy or emulate other people, we work on transitioning that to feeling empathy for them. They don’t know they’re eating this. They don’t know. They say “Well, I’m fine.” But they might have some depression, or irritability, or fatigue, or brain fog that they accept as normal because they’ve never not had it. When you get onto a really good keto plan, and your brain clears, and your stomach problems go away, the long list, about 125 things can go away, then you’ll start to get a look at “Oh, wow, maybe I just don’t want to eat that.” But the key thing is to be around people like Carole who are not eating it, and get that eye to contact with people who don’t eat it, because that will quiet down those mirror neurons.
Oh my gosh, that was one of the biggest things that I learned from you at your talk, because frankly, when I heard you were speaking in Florida, I was like “This is my favorite topic, it’s so under appreciated.” These food like substances, and how they act in our brain. People are so in denial because we’ve been conditioned to think that “Well, it’s just empty calories. That’s the worst that it is, it’s just empty calories.” And so on. We’re gonna get into the mirror neurons in a minute, because that actually was a really big light bulb for me, but I want to ask, we have a question from a viewer that will be watching, Tyler Cartwright of Keto Gains. He wrote in, and he wanted to ask you a question, so he bought your textbook. His question was what do you say to people, in looking at food addiction, or addiction behaviors, we look at the brain.
We can do MRIs of the brain, and see what areas that light up. He’s asking what do you say to people that say “Well, these things can’t be addictive, because that’s the same part of the brain that lights up when we look at babies, or puppies.
Oh, that’s such a good question.
Or when we pet cats.
Tyler, good question. The dopamine, serotonin, endorphin, endocannabinoid, opiate pathways are there. For lovely reasons, they were given to us so that we could experience pleasure. Those are the pleasure centers in the brain, and when we’re experiencing satisfaction, or a sense of good, or joy, it’s because those pathways are releasing those neuro transmitters. We really love those pathways. Now, what an addictive substance does is it hyper activates. You don’t get this nice trickle. If you exercise in the morning, you’re gonna feel good all day. If you meditate in the morning, you’re gonna feel better all day. If you have a really fun conversation with somebody, you’re gonna feel better for hours. An addictive substance is gonna just live you up in a Tsunami, like a tidal wave of euphoria, elation.
He was just talking to the TV.
Then drop you off. The trajectory of a baby, or a cat, is like [inaudible 00:11:59]. But the trajector is wham, bam.
Yeah, and that’s not something that shows in an MRI, because the MRI just shows it’s lit up, but not the degree or, yeah.
Yeah, because you can’t literally watch an MRI over time, but I think if you’re really interested, you can email me at firstname.lastname@example.org, and I’ll find the study. It’s a very different pattern of release, and therefore a very different life. As soon as you’re crashing 20 minutes later, you gotta get back up, you gotta get back up, so it’s driving you all the time.
And it’s never the same high that it was the first time.
No, no. It’s nasty.
Let’s talk about the mirror neurons, the big light bulb you had. You’ve been doing this work for over 20 years, and the one thing that people struggle with the most is “How do I stick with it? I know that stuff makes me feel like garbage, and this way of eating makes me feel really good, why is it so hard to stick with this?”
Yes, this is the core question. Let’s talk about mirror neurons. Mirror neurons do one thing, and they do it extremely well, which is they tell us to copy, and copy urgently, copy what the people around us are doing. Why is this so powerful? Well, because 200,000 years ago, when people were in primitive tribes, life was very dangerous. If a predator came along and that person on the other side of the tribe realized it, and knew that everybody needed to run like this, they would start running. You would just start running. You wouldn’t stop and engage all your level thinking and say “Wow, do I feel like running? Is this a running moment for me?” No. Because if you did that, the predator would get you. You would be the straggler, and the predator would get you. And you would not live long enough to have children and send on your genes.
Same thing with the weather, or with food. If you just say “Oh, I don’t feel like looking for food today. I see everyone’s leaving to look for food, I don’t feel like it.” You’re gonna die.
Other animals have these, right? I keep referring it to as the lemming effect, the little animals that run over the cliff, or it allows birds to fly together.
Yes, flocks of birds. Or when the wolves get up, and they go running, everybody goes. The whole group of wolves go. Yes, this is a lot of different behaviors are based in these mirror neurons. They’re quite powerful. When a mirror neuron is activated, the way it communicates with me, if I see somebody lifting their hand like this, my mirror neurons actually will go directly to my motor neurons, and they will send impulses to my hand. My hand’s not moving, but it’s receiving the same impulses as the hand that I’m watching move. Now we know that the reason why addictions can be transmitted through people is that the mirror neurons are capable also of sending messages directly to the craving pathways.
If I’m watching somebody eat a processed food, I am actually in relapse. My neurons, my craving neurons are actually activate. Not at the same level, at about a 20% level, but I have that experience of kind of echoing of a relapse. What I … and yet, if you’re not in a tribe, you’re unhappy. If you’re outside of a tribe, and you’re alone, your mirror neurons are just going berserk, because your mirror neurons are saying “Okay, you’re gonna die, you’re gonna die, you’re gonna die, something’s gonna get us. We need to be in a tribe, and we need to go look for a tribe right now.” All of our time is going to be spent looking for a tribe.
Basically you’re describing the woman who’s at home, trying to follow a diet all by herself, and the rest of her family is eating all the processed foods.
Well, and she’s seeing it on TV.
This is why when you see TV commercials for snack foods, they’re always people, and they’re always on the sofa.
It doesn’t have to be in the same room, you can see other people in movies, TV, and commercials doing it, and it will activate it.
Yes, yes, yes. Particularly, if you’ve ever sat on a sofa and watched TV, your mirror neurons are going to identify more strongly, because it’s something that you’ve experienced yourself over and over again.
As you’re watching right now, you’re having a very strong desire to pet a cat.
Yes. I realized that I needed to provide people with a tribe, and it’s just what you’re saying, it works over video, it works on a screen. Mirror neurons will engage. We started the Addiction Reset community last year, we beta tested it in 2018, and it worked. It worked incredibly. I’ve been looking for 23 years for something that would be reliable.
Well, and 23 years ago you didn’t have the technology that you could set that up remotely. You’d all have to move in together.
No, and because it’s such a bad addiction, we need a lot of it. We need a lot of counteracting messaging. I realize we offer two video chats, and then a telephone conference call in the evening, and then we offer a lot of things in between. We record the conference calls, we have a whole big archive of conference calls. People can listen to conference calls in between the video chats, and people do very often need to do that. If they’re lapsing, and lapsing, and lapsing, and they just cannot get on top of it, they just need to kind of soak their environment and their heads in recovery stimulation so that that part of the brain starts sending out bigger thoughts than the craving part.
Does it get easier over time?
Well, here’s the thing is that mirror neurons are always going to be working. This is really what saved me in 1996, was my family got on board with me right away. I was not a TV watcher, so I wasn’t getting that stimulation. I had a once a week physical group, so I had a tribe to identify with “Okay, this is my new tribe.” Even though I was only with them once a week, my experience was so tremendous that I was talking to them in my head even when I wasn’t with them. I now know, and I was not a shopper. I wasn’t the kind of person who would go and just drift around the mall. I wouldn’t drift around grocery stores, I was like “Okay, I got 20 minutes to do the grocery shopping for four people for the week. I’m in, I’m out.”
I didn’t know that I was avoiding a lot of food stimulation, a lot of cuing, a lot of mirror neuron provocation, if you will. I started writing a book about it right away. I was also processing things through writing, I had therapeutic things going on, which I wouldn’t have identified at that time, but now, looking back on it, I say “Oh, well that’s why I was able to do it.” But I will tell you something interesting, I did that for eight years, and then I went back to get my doctorate, and I said “Well, I really don’t have time to go to the meetings anymore.” It took 10 years, but at the end of 10 years, my program had completely fallen apart, my dad died, and I couldn’t stop. I couldn’t stop. There was a particular sweet that he liked. I remember at all of his services and so on, this was sweet was everywhere. Everybody brought their own versions of it. I could not stop, and then I got back into a groove. And I stopped right away.
Okay, so you find your tribe and community. I often tell people it’s part of why, whatever dietary regimen people follow, if they identify, like, a vegan movement. People identify “I’m a vegan,” they hang out with vegans, they go to vegan restaurants. That’s part of why it’s sustainable for them, is because they immerse themselves in that tribe.
That’s a perfect analogy, or Kosher. Or pescetarian, or whatever. Yeah. If you raise a Kosher child, the first thing they do when they get in front of a buffet is they turn to their parents, and they want to know what they can’t eat. They don’t just run over and sneak the non-Kosher foods. No. Their tribe identity is, oh, we’re Kosher. Oh, we’re vegan. “What can I eat, mom?”
What do you say to … I work with a lot of, almost all women, and a lot of them still “Well, I don’t want to deprive my kids.” It’s much easier, my household is all keto. I don’t have those things that trigger me here, or cue me to eat them. It’s so much easier to not want those things if they’re not in the house, but most of the people I’m working with, they still have the perspective that “Well, I don’t want to deprive my children of these foods, and I don’t want to inconvenience my husband and make him have to eat these, clean out the house of all these things.” What do you say when that’s their big …
Well, education. Education really helps. We do have handouts about processed foods at food addiction resources. Click on handouts, and then scroll down, and you’ll just see 25 really well documented handouts. One of the first ones is the list of diseases associated with processed foods. That’s something that you can really subtly just put up on the refrigerator door. The most important thing that really, the super weapon, is their mirror neurons. Usually women are the food provider in the household, not always. But they will start making clean food. You’re gonna get that crock pot out, why? Because it will fill the house up with clean food cues. Smells are the strongest cues, and you just fill the house up with clean food cues.
Just as Carole was saying, if the primitive brain knows that a calorie is available, it will bug you to go get it. If you are in a primitive situation, and you walk past the place where the whatever is growing, your brain will remember that it was there last year. It will make you stop. It will say “Stop, stop, stop, go get it, go get it, go get it.” Your brain will suddenly be flooded with thoughts of that food. Oh, yeah, that food here at this time of year, of course I’m gonna go get it.” The primitive brain is very tuned in to what is available, and if there is processed food, particularly addictive foods in the household, everybody’s brain will be aware of that, and everybody’s brain will be saying “Go get it, go get it, go get it.”
Vending machines at work, break rooms at work. Somebody sends around that dang email that such and such is in the break room, that just drives people crazy. It really feeds the obsession. Another thing to do is to be very careful about what is out on the kitchen counter. If there is clean food on the kitchen counter, then everybody is being visually triggered into “Oh, that’s what’s available.” Then you gotta negotiate with your family members that anything, not the children, the children are just not allowed to have it in the house, but the other adults, they gotta keep it in the trunk of their car, and they gotta make sure that their keys are not available to you.
I realized that we’re … I forgot to set this up that our goal today was to give you the top five ways to overcome a food addiction. You’ve hit on two of them already.
Yeah, don’t keep it in your house.
Yeah, don’t keep it in your house, set out the crock pot, have clean food cues, keto food cues, put those things and make them more available. All right, let’s keep going.
The biggest, biggest, biggest one is never to look at somebody while they’re eating an addictive food. That just drives those mirror neurons into a frenzy, and they can reach the motor neurons directly, remember? Some people have had this, where their hand is reaching out to get something, and their brain, their frontal lobe is saying “No, I don’t want that,” but that hand gets it and puts it in the mouth anyway. That’s mirror neurons triggering in combination with cravings.
The next thing is to have the correct foods available a lot. Another one is get an online grocery store ordering system going, because a grocery store is just a massive trigger. It’s engineered by food neuro marketers to be massively overwhelming, and it’s tragically effective. Watch your environments. Don’t go to restaurants. The food in your house is so much better, it’s safe, you don’t really know what’s in that restaurant food, no matter what they say about it. Get into a beautiful habit of eating at home, and then with your friends, family, if you need an activity, go for a walk. Go to the library. Do something that doesn’t involve food.
I always, I teach my clients to think about it as avoid sensory input of foods that you don’t want to eat. Don’t look at foods, don’t spend all day on Pinterest looking up food recipes, and food videos. One of the ones that I had to change for me to be able to stay on keto, I used to love to watch cooking shows. Even now, I’m almost four years in, even now when it pops on of somebody else is watching it, I gotta look away, because all of a sudden, I’m like “That sounds really good right now.” Don’t look at food, don’t look at recipes, is this is one of the reasons I have people, for my structure, I don’t allow them to have any, to implement recipes at all for at least the first 30 days of following keto.
Don’t look in a cookbook.
Yeah, don’t look in cookbooks, don’t even have recipes. Here’s how you can keep it so simple that you’re not even spending time looking at recipes. Don’t smell food. I’ve had people say “Well, the way I cope with my sugar addiction is I just smell it.” You’re torturing yourself.
Yeah, that’s very smart, that’s very smart.
There’s one, and hearing it is less common, but there’s one, and I really like, too, I noticed that the way you talk about these foods, you don’t name specific foods. That’s another thing-
No, it’s a trigger.
I don’t allow as well, and people get all bent out of shape about “Wow, how weak are you that talking about it …” but that’s enough, it’s enough if you name a specific food, especially if it’s somebody’s past history, the brain will just start ruminating in it.
Oh, gosh, our reactivity to food cues is huge. That’s why we’re alive today because for all of our generations, they were highly sensitive, highly reactive to food cues. We’re not supposed to be able control that, we are supposed to respond to that. You’re right on target, you gotta deal with the cuing.
Yeah. We live in an environment, you’re giving me so many examples of why processed food addiction is so much harder to overcome than any other addiction is because it’s everywhere. Every corner, and every food manufacturer. The thing that gets me is this is stuff that every food manufacturer, they know all of this. Most nutritionists and dietitians don’t.
Yeah. Now, they, I remember I was giving a talk years ago, and a scientist came up to me, he said “I just want to affirm you, Joan.” This was years ago before we kind of … Now we have a ground swell around food addiction. Years ago this man came up to me, he said “I was the head of research and development for one of the big food processors.” He said “We had three scientists whose full time job was to make the foods addictive.” This is the tobacco model. This started when the tobacco companies moved into processed foods in the 1980s, and they laid on the advertising, and they hyped up the addictive properties of the foods, and they went after small children, and they made it available everywhere, and they made it very, very cheap.
Same model as when cigarette smoking took off in the 1940s. It’s very deliberate, and unbelievably profitable.
Yeah. You’re not doing your kids any favor by letting them eat those foods when they’re young, because you’re actually just making them addicted from a very young age. People falsely think “Well, the kid’s skinny, so they can get away with it for now.”
No, no. I do say this really snide thing when people ask me when they could give their children sugar, I say “Just anytime you would give them a cigarette it’s okay to give them sugar.”
I love that.
Sugar is actually worse than cigarettes.
In a lot of ways, yeah. Yeah. It’s a slow death.
I agree, yeah. Oh, gosh, I’m so glad that you’re here, and I love everything that you’ve shared. Is there anything else that you were hoping I would ask about, or anything else that you wanna share with people?
Well, I have a project underway I’d like to get people ready for, I’m writing a book called Could it Be Food Addiction? For people who have tried, most people have tried 20, or 30, or 40 things. Most people, some people are trying something new every day. I will say people don’t give up. They keep going, and they’re determined, and they keep trying it. The answer is maybe all of those other hundreds of things have failed because it’s actually a food addiction. Food addiction needs a very precise, comprehensive approach. You need to get in the right tribe, the right support group. You need a super clean food plan, and you need somebody who is going to understand lapsing, because lapsing in alcoholism is one thing, you can go the entire day without an alcohol cue. You cannot go an entire day without a processed food trigger, massive triggers, people really pushing it on you, and now that we understand mirroring, it’s inevitable that a food addict will lapse on processed foods.
People who understand how to pull you back up, be really patient and kind, and then gradually and respectfully bring the household on board. It’s a very specific approach. Then access to a lot of support. Access to hours and hours a day. You’re not gonna get dressed and go to three meetings a day, but if you’re home, yeah, you might tune in at, if you’re on the East Coast, 11 o’clock, and then tune in again at four o’clock, and then get on the phone at eight o’clock. Meetings that are spaced out during the day, and that you don’t have to get dressed and drive to online meetings. It’s very specific, but it really works.
I thought of one more question for you, is there any hope for somebody to get sober off of processed foods if they don’t clean up their home food environment?
Yes, oh yes. Oh, thank you, that’s a really perceptive question. Think about a typical food addict in the moment. They’re exhausted, they’re shattered because they’ve tried all these things and nothing worked. Their self esteem is non existent. They have brain fog. They have physical disabilities, their joints hurt. They may have excess fat tissue on their bodies they are really beat. Not through their own doing, they’ve been beaten up. Is that person going to be able to rearrange all their relationships, and clean out their house, and work a new food plan, and start thinking differently, and feeling differently, and be okay. But no, it’s completely unrealistic. Where do you start?
You just start with getting onto video chats with other people. We do have another program, which is all day long. The video screen is open all day long, and people can just sit, and first of all just start to identify with their tribe, and let the mirror neurons kick in so that after a while you say “Okay, I’ve got some clean food in the refrigerator, I’m gonna have that for lunch.” Then they can go off and have that, and come back and sit with us some more. This online, full time, I call it home rehab. It’s the home addiction reset program, the HAR, that sometimes is all people can do to start.
It might be months before … You gotta remember, also, the people in the household, first of all, they’re probably addicted. Second of all, they are so tired of this family member. “Oh, I’m starting a new diet today.” In their eyes, this is just one more diet, what is mom doing today? The idea that you’re going to work with all those household members and make them comfortable with having the processed foods out of the house, that’s a fairly complicated process. Now, if you live alone, like I live alone, there’s not a molecule of processed foods in my house, but I have total control over that. Even that process can take weeks and weeks, and it can be done by degrees.
I remember I went through and got the obvious stuff out, but I put it in a garbage bag in the pantry. My family could still get it, but the visual was that they were pulling it out of the garbage bag. Then, eventually, I moved all that to the garage, and then eventually into a garbage can, but that took weeks. We let that play out over time. I let my family members get used to this idea, but they had already seen the results in me. Sometimes people say “All right, I’m gonna let my family see the results in me, and then we’ll talk about getting the house cleaned out. Sometimes that doesn’t work. The person will gradually become more and more motivated because they’re really tired of lapsing on this stuff in the house, so they just finally put their foot down and they say “We just can’t have this in the house.” Then gradually, the other family members start feeling better, too. The grades at school come up, and they become more agreeable to it.
It’s a process. It’s a complicated process.
Wonderful. Yeah, that’s great. I thank you so much for being here. If people want to know more about you and connect with you and your programs, how can they get in touch with you?
An email to foodaddictionreset@gmail. We have a great website, foodaddictionreset.com. We have a wonderful Facebook group, Food Addiction Education. Yeah, you can find us there.
Wonderful, I’m gonna go join all those right now.
Well, thank you again, Dr. Ifland for being here. I’m so excited-
Thank you for having me.
For the work that you’re doing. Share this with anyone that you think … Well, everyone. Everyone should watch this video, it’s very eye opening, but if you enjoy this, give us a thumbs up, subscribe, hit the little bell down there as well. That’s how you’re going to get notifications of new videos in our Keto Chat Series. Thanks everyone for watching, thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.