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Toxic Superfoods with Sally K Norton | KCL39

Episode Description: 
With over 30 years in the health and wellness field, Sally K. Norton is a consultant, writer, educator, and speaker who specializes in helping people overcome pain and fatigue by avoiding or limiting plant foods that contain a natural chemical called oxalate.

For over 30 years, she struggled her own seemingly unanswerable health puzzle: “Why would a person who knows how to build health have so many health difficulties that she cannot overcome?” When she finally discovered the cause and the path out of misery, she committed to teaching and reaching out to others stuck in a similar frustrating situation.

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Carole Freeman: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone to Keto chat live the podcast with your host Carole Freeman board certified keto nutrition specialist. And just we’ll get this out of the way really quickly. Nothing in this show is meant to diagnose, prevent, treat anything medical condition. This show is for entertainment and informational purposes only.

And let’s see, what else am I supposed to say? If you have any concerns about your own medical condition, please seek out proper care from a licensed healthcare professional. Today I’m here. Third time with Sally K Norton, everyone. Welcome Sally. I met Sally at least four years ago at one of the many metabolic health conferences.

Okay. Immediately intrigued by her topic or that she was speaking on oxalates and I’m having her back for the third time, because the past episodes get the most comments still to this day. So I pulled up the past episodes. You were on my episode [00:01:00] 66. So I used to just do YouTube interviews that weren’t live.

And so that was in September 27th, 2017? Yep. Yep. Four and a half years ago and innovator. And that has, oh my gosh. I don’t know, like a hundred comments, so we’re going to go through some of those. And also then I had her back in December 27th, 2020 for episode 1 35. And so today is the third time in 2020.

But some of you may not, some people watching may not know you. So let’s start with Sally. Will you share a little bit about Who you are and how you got on this oxalate train information train.

Toxic Superfoods with Sally K Norton


Sally Norton: I’m a bit of a library geek. I decided as a kid that I wanted to get into the field of nutrition and studied in school because wouldn’t it be cool if I could help people avoid getting cancer and heart disease and things like that.

So I was like 12 just set my career path and was already preaching nutrition in kindergarten. I would come home from school and tell my mom, we’re supposed to have blah, blah, blah. [00:02:00] Like I was like why I was a goody two shoes and I had health problems as a little kid. I had my tonsils out by the time I was five.

I remember these spoons. Of liquid penicillin, which most living people don’t recall these, but they’re pretty nasty. It’s this thick pink, nasty tasting stuff. I’m 58 now. And so that was a long time ago. But I remember that I can tell you that right now it’s unforgettably bad. Yeah. And I was barred from like the swimming pool because of swimmer’s ear over and over again.

And apparently had a lot of little childhood stuff. They couldn’t figure out why we were sick all the time. My sister and I, so at that probably was one of the reasons why, by the time I was in kindergarten, I was concerned about my health. Like already, like we’re supposed to do this before it, plus I’m a food geek.

I loved eating food. I love my vegetables and the rhubarb in the back of the garage and the fresh green beans and the sour cherries and the cherry tree and picking fruit in the fall. And so I’m [00:03:00] a, I love food. I’m a pretty good cook. And I went to Cornell for my nutrition degree. And then went on and got my master’s in public health at UNC and was working in communities and also worked at the university and integrative medicine where I ran a big grant to try to integrate holistic health and healing concepts into the health professions, education and medicine, dentistry, nursing, pharmacy, and public health.

And I went on and became a grant writer and designing research grants and all that. So worked in academia and in communities a long time. And I was sick. Most of my adulthood, arthritis and fatigue. Back problems and all kinds of issues. It was always perfect eater. And I was a plant-based eater for 16 years, which was turned out to be a giant mistake.

And I, my whole career ended pretty abruptly. I had to quit my job and have a hysterectomy and I didn’t recover well from that.[00:04:00] Turned out I had endometriosis and all kinds of problems. My list of problems is tremendous and I couldn’t get over that surgery. And I was really disabled with fatigue and couldn’t function.

Couldn’t read the mail couldn’t exercise. Couldn’t really do anything. And it through trial and error, trying to figure out how to deal with it. Turns out I had a sleep disorder and I didn’t read. I was so tired. I didn’t know. I wasn’t even sleeping the sleep study where they wire you up. They stick stuff all over your body and you’re attached to a million wires, showed that my brain was awake or waking up or arousal.

They call the Razzles 29 every year. Cool. That might explain why you can’t read you. Can’t function is the pressure on an ax murderer without little Madison leap, wait a minute. So then I was on a three-year journey of how do you fix a sleep problem?

And because of the meds don’t work and nothing was working and it had to be gut dysbiosis because the literature shows very [00:05:00] clearly that sleep problems are toxicity, brain toxicity, and the most likely culprit would be CBO type overgrowth, the wrong stuff, putting out pollution in your body and your colon and in your intestines.

So I was seeking treatment that way and that wasn’t working. And so I was trying to fix my constipation and I through all of this. I figured out that it was my healthy diet that had ruined my.

Carole Freeman: How oh, how let’s see. I want to ask first so you use a phrase plant-based, but that’s not what we called it back then. So were you,

Sally Norton: I was a, lacto-ovo vegetarian for eight years, and then I switched to vegan diet for eight years. Okay. That’s a really bad turn to do because when you cut out calcium, this thing in my healthy diet, that gets ya is way worse. So when you go dairy free, you set yourself up for more of this illness, this [00:06:00] toxicity illness that comes from national toxin implants that was glossed over, barely discussed at all.

When I was in college and is barely mentioned in the textbooks, even though there’s a lot of science about it and the science has been going on since the 17 hundreds.

Carole Freeman: This is really interesting to then. Because I’ll oftentimes in a, like a, so if people are having. Issues like you’re talking about the art results, all for my healthy diet.

Then often the next step is go do the autoimmune protocol, which is cut out dairy and these other, which it sounds like now that when you do that, you’re only going to elevate your symptoms or enhance them.

Sally Norton: Yeah, that’s what I find with my clients, because what I’ve been doing since I’ve been doing this research since 2013, I’ve been doing research in the medical literature and then started doing consults is I’m teaching for free and see like figuring this thing out.

So many of my clients are X AIP, years, X, paleo, X, [00:07:00] keto, X X, like they’ve already tried everything else when they’re not really working for very long. Then it’s because we completely blindsided by this. No one is mentioning this and we’re promoting these foods that have this toxin that makes, can make you so sick.

That made me so sick and it’s really eroding the health of all modern people in ways just isn’t being acknowledged by medical practice, even though the evidence of it is pretty strong in the medical literature and very strong out here in the real.

Carole Freeman: I can see we’ve got people live. So go ahead and join the show.

Let us know that you’re here, where you’re joining us from. If you’ve got any questions already keyed up for Sally, go ahead and pop them in the chat and we’ll get to those as well, too. I want to know next, how did you reconcile that? Cause I know a lot of people, the current term is plant-based they truly believe that they’re eating the healthiest way for their body, for nutrition, for the planet.

How did you get from really, especially after all the training you had in, in nutrition, how did you go [00:08:00] from, like, how did you finally get to the point where you’re like, maybe this isn’t the best way for me to eat? How did, what was that like to go through that? And how did you get there?

Sally Norton: The end of the vegan era for me, which is quite a while back now was, and I was so disabled at that time I was in graduate school. Trying to get through statistics and all that and struggling mightily. And I was having these discoveries that this nice whole wheat, fresh, heavy wheat, very bread was basically deepening my fatigue to the point where I could hardly move off the sofa.

And then I was figuring out that these like permanent, I had two or three big zits that had been sitting there for two years oh, wow. And that turned out to be soy related. And then I realized that like the whole family was not agreeing with me anymore. And so I realized I had to cut out wheat and bread and all the legumes and you can’t stay vegan when you do that.

And luckily the Western price foundation was coming strong. It was about 19 99, 19 [00:09:00] 2000. So it was like 22 plus something years ago.

Yeah, that was a place the law to leap toward oh, maybe butter’s not so bad. Like I was doing from my training Cornell, I was doing low salt, low fat plant-based starving myself of salt.

My adrenal glands were shot from the low salt diet. So how am I? God I’ve started drinking Gatorade. I had to drink it every day for a year. And now I still am drinking salt water every day now to recover from what I’m dealing with is obviously obsolete problem. So it took a while to get my head around this because I was I was trained at Cornell. That butter is so saturated. It’s the worst food ever.

And everything I was taught in school like, oh, sugar is benign. It just causes dental caries, like no butter sugars. Okay. Like I was thinking jam on toast and no butter was the way to live like,

Carole Freeman: oh and people that don’t know your story, wait until they hear how far how this has gone 180 [00:10:00] degree different.

So is it merrily or is there supposed to be a Marilee from Shayla’s welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. And then we have George from Tampa all the way from Florida. Hi. Or it could be Jorge as well. Jorge, George, welcome to the show. I actually am going to Orlando. I’m speaking of podcasting conference in may.

So I’ll be I’ll be waving as I get a little closer to you there. All so Western price foundation, you mentioned. Now I’m like, oh, I forgot about the Western price foundation. That was really popular while I was going through my training at best year in 2012. I haven’t heard much about them lately.

Sally Norton: So the Western Sally Fallon’s started that as a swing, as a spinoff from the price Pottenger foundation. And she’s done really devoted to those, Western prices thing about you guys have to teach. And so she’s done a lot to bring back meat and butter is re human foods.

Thank God for that. Because now I’m very clear that to have a healthy diet, you must have some [00:11:00] animal protein and some serious amount of animal protein in your diet to really have long-term health. And some people on the surface claim they’re getting by for decades on without that. But I don’t think that’s likely for the majority of us,

Carole Freeman: So how did you start to know that oxalates may be the core of the root of a lot of things you going through?

Sally Norton: In 2013 I had this attack of like crotch pain and I was quite distressed and only it was going on for a day and a half and I was already over it. And my husband looked that up.

He looked up vulva pain on the internet and found the vulvar pain foundation in North Carolina. And they’re located just like 35 minutes from where I used to work at UNC in chapel hill, North Carolina. So I was surprised. I didn’t know about them already because I had put [00:12:00] together conferences. And the one I put together in 2005 was oriented toward toxins and toxicity.

So we’d been covering endometriosis and. Environmental toxins. But in that world of environmental medicine and toxicity awareness, the natural toxins that plants make for their own self-defense, they have natural, pesticides and all kinds of other Seidel, chemicals that are protecting them from attack from fungus’s and bugs and rodents, and everybody who wants to have Adam.

And since they don’t have claws and feet, their only defense has to be chemical. And we’re, we, you don’t cover that in school so much. You don’t cover in school. Oh my gosh. We were right across the quad at Cornell and electrician school from the ag school. We didn’t cover about, farming and production techniques and the effects on the nutritional quality of food.

We did not cover food toxins. If I had to do all over again, I would do a degree in. Food toxicology, because that’s really what’s [00:13:00] going on is we’re knowing that not only in mainstream medicine and holistic health care, but we’re also just missing it, environmental medicine too. We’re not paying attention to natural toxins.

Carole Freeman: Not only, I don’t remember, I’ve told you this in the past or not, but when I went through school, so I did an undergrad nutrition followed by a master’s degree in nutrition. So I was. Studying nutrition for five years straight. And one of the courses that we had at that time, so that was probably 2007 through to 2012 was when I was studying.

And we had a groundbreaking brand new class that we took that was bioactive compounds in plants. So not only were we not learning that plants had toxins in them, we were we had this class that was looking at trying to identify all the good things that were in plants. And it was interesting because we was like preliminary research and they could identify, sulforaphane and all these things in the plants.

And basically the conclusion the professor was like everything’s really new and early, and we don’t really know how much of [00:14:00] these we need. And if more is better, anything like that too. And I’d be curious, They’re probably still teaching that class, but I, they need to add the other side of that, which is, oh, the plants actually don’t really want most of the plants don’t want us eating them.

Sally Norton: There’s so much in what you’re saying there, we could talk for a whole hour about this. And the first one is this benefits only mindset oh, there might be something good. So let’s just think about the good parts and ignore the rest. And there’s lots of reasons to do that partially because our political structures, both in medicine and government that promote.

Profit generating products like groceries and agricultural products. You never really completely kill off a bad food.

So in the spinach world, we’ve known it’s spinach kills the rats and causes severe malnutrition and young rats and young human infants, and is a negative calcium food. Like you eat it. It has less than zero [00:15:00] available, calcium in it and iron too.

So we know, especially in infants, that if you feed them spinach, you’re sucking them dry of calcium and giving them a zero calcium diet. And in the rat studies, the rats die from this, or, are infertile. We’ve known this for a long time that it’s quite bad in terms of like mineral nutrition, especially calcium, malnutrition.

And yet we’ll say at the end of summarizing the 15 studies that confirm those findings that well, there’s some vitamin a there and some C and probably some other good stuff. So we should keep it in the leafy green food department. Now. No. It’s this is driving me crazy. Cause this same tendency that has been, it was people working with the AMA that were saying that in 1937 and that same conclusion is still being repeated about those, this chemical oxalate.

That’s so toxic that it’s so commonly overeaten now. And just generally but the truth is that, we went through this period probably right around the time you were studying, [00:16:00] thinking that these plant compounds, these polyphenols, many of them are tannins basically that they are in accidents and they’re absolutely not.

They know that concept was a kind of a. Back of the envelope kind of shortcut way to think about it. It’s not that at all. And the current experts, the international experts in these plant compounds is very clear that it that was just a thing. We call them for a while. They’re not, that’s not how it works at all.

And they’re toxins that, the tan, we have enzymes in our mouth and the GESA tract and liver to disarm these polyphenols because they’re so toxic, they’re very toxic.

So if they get past the mouth enzymes and pass the digestive enzymes and pass the liver, they could get into the body, but the body doesn’t want them.

That’s why it has these enzymes. And so what we’re hoping for is that you might have the right genetics and the right microbiome to break [00:17:00] down, have that microbiome breakdown, those polyphenols, and get a few, a small amount of these little female. Molecules these little sub pieces of the polyphenols.

And some of those might be absorbed by people if they have the right bacteria. And if they have the right genetics. Now, I can’t think of the topics that have more possible combinations of wrong than

Carole Freeman: going to Vegas and winning the jackpot

Sally Norton: and that, and now we’re hanging our hat. All nutrition is about these phytonutrients. You gotta eat a lot of plants. I got these phytonutrients when it is you’d be better off buying a lottery ticket than

Carole Freeman: a vegetable. Those of you watching listening right now, give me a guess or a Y in the chat box, if you’ve ever in your life thought that green smoothies were beneficial to your health.

I would, I’m going to type a yes right now in there. Cause I’ve done that in the past. Go ahead and share with us if you’re anybody that fell into the trap that, and maybe you’re still doing it. I don’t know [00:18:00] where everybody is on their nutrition journey right now. And even if you don’t, if you currently are trying to have a smoothie every morning to start your day, because you’re trying to get a lot of nutrients in and plant nutrients, Tina’s given the a yes, don’t worry. There’s hope. There’s hope.

Sally Norton: Yes, there is. It’s it is still a big thing. And I was noticing recently someone shared with me on Instagram, a recipe for a smoothie that uses six cups of spinach. In one portion for one person. So six cups of spinach is something like 2200 milligrams of oxalate. That’s 2.2 grams of oxalate.

And that if you were to have three of those in the first half of your day, you might actually die from that. That’s how much oxalate is in that.

Carole Freeman: Wow. W which. Common knowledge at all, that these are such potent toxins that you could die if you consumed enough of them. So Tina’s done [00:19:00] kale, spinach, smoothies Marilee saying yuck.

So let’s see. So where should we go? Where should we go next? I also want to say it’s funny. Because the interviews we’ve done in the past have so many comments on them. Like our original interview, we did has 165 comments.

Sally Norton: I have defenders and want me to be treated decently.

Carole Freeman: I’m also complained about the sound in the past, but Hey, five, what? Five, six, almost six years ago sounds were different on the internet. So hopefully things are better. I’ve got a good quality microphone, but we’ll still get, we’ll still get complaints no matter what so

Sally Norton: well, it’s nice that people are listening hard and wanting to catch every [00:20:00] word we want. And we would love it to be easy to listen to when.

Carole Freeman: And so the, I don’t know if it’s the American way. I think it’s the American way. Is that if some is good, more must be better. And we’re, the ship is finally turning around, I think has been very slow in the last 60 years, but, we fat and meat and animal foods, salt have all been demonized.

And so then the only thing that was left was the plant kingdom. And we’ve gone through a period of time where we would just been poisoning ourselves, like in a lot of different ways. And so do you have a sense then of how do we get on this path of if these super food, how do we get to call them super foods?

And how is it that the ones that we picked, we decided you need to put 16 cups and blend it up and add some sweetener to make it even edible. Like, how did we get here? Yeah, it’s a really

Sally Norton: good question. I, there’s this. Competitive spirit. You’ve got to be the best you can be and push everything really hard.

And yeah, the more is [00:21:00] better is very American. I always think of George Washington’s death because he ran out on his horse. He’s a big tall guy with a big white horse out in a snowstorm. And he came back with strep throat and of course he didn’t know what it was. And at the time the best doctors all still did bleeding.

So he got bled for that once and said we can do it again. So the twice. And then he said, I wanted a third time. And the third time took him out. So the father of our country thought more was better.

Carole Freeman: Blame it on George Washington. All right. That

Sally Norton: binds us. He’s our guy. And that’s certainly going on now with this escalation, I thought a smoothie was two cups of spinach, but apparently in some minds it’s six in multiplying something that’s toxic enough at a half cup oopsie is just more of that same.

And since it’s not working, if it doesn’t work, do more of it, that’s oh, I’m not doing it enough. Like the vegans tell each other, if it’s [00:22:00] not working, you’re not vegan enough. And same thing with our, oh, you’re doing paleo or keto or anything. You’re not doing a good enough, so if it’s not working, not that.

Lots. We don’t know. And maybe, it’s really hard to be the one to say, look, everything we’ve been telling ourselves for the last 30 years is completely bogus. And I’m the one to tell you that it’s I’m just a survivor of all of that and barely survived at that. And now I work with people.

Who’ve got very serious illnesses because we were doing the best we could for ourselves eating these. Healthy foods. And it turns out that the plants that have a lot of oxalate, which is the toxin I’m really worried about are the ones that tend to have a lot of these polyphenols that are getting credit for being antioxidants.

So we’re still in the mindset from 15 years ago that these plant compounds are antioxidants, but they’re not for us. They are in a Petri dish and they probably do some of that sort of thing for the plant itself. But in our bodies, that’s not the case at all, but we are, we’re giving them [00:23:00] credit, like rating systems on plants.

If they have more of these polyphenols, then they’re higher antioxidant. None of which is true. But I think that’s how kale won the day. Kale got some big score in some beauty pageant for Kali females. And it has been the queen of vegetables ever since.

Carole Freeman: It’s so funny, I was working, I’m working on a joke, but I do stand up comedy night for those of you that don’t know.

But like I was working on this joke bit about like how. Like my top advice for people. As a keto nutritionist, my top advice is take kale and throw it in the garbage because hail is garbage and it never hits well. So I did this poll on, one of the social media platforms and not 50% of the people.

Like I love kale and 50% Kale’s garbage. And it was, I was chatting with another comedian friend of mine that he knows the most random facts about everything. And he was telling me that. So you’ll remember this Sally, that kale used to be just a garnish. It would never, it wasn’t food, not even, I don’t know, [00:24:00] 20 years ago.

And he wrote, my friend told me fun fact that the number one buyer of. Kale historically was pizza hut. It was their garnish for their salad.

Sally Norton: Yes, that’s what it was. My first image was, how you have the crushed ice around it. You get sick, the kale and around the crushed ice to make that all look gardening on a steak restaurant, you stick a little piece of kale and the side by the steak to feature that steak with a little bit of green thing on the side.

No one’s going to eat that.

Carole Freeman: It wasn’t food. It was garnish. Somehow, like you said, it just won a beauty pageant. And then the only way it’s edible I can’t tell you how many, like massage, Kanal salads and things, recipes. I learned when I was in school of ways of actually making it edible, because it really is just this fiber that, if you’re lucky, it just goes straight through, but worst case.

Sally Norton: Yeah. And eating it raw. The raw cabbage family generally is pretty hard on the digestive tract and they all have this raffinose sugar that’s [00:25:00] indigestible that gives you bloating yeah.

It really was that mentality behind your class that you took in school about the supposed great compounds in plants that helped launch vegetables into new stratosphere, new supplements. And see, I think what drives us as you can generate products and supplements very quickly. And so you have many voices going, oh, this is the way to go.

And by the way, I have my new supplement line. Oh, check out my new Glenda, check out my new cookbook of smoothie recipes over here.

So everybody gets on the bandwagon and then you can’t stop that train because everybody’s so invested financially and emotionally that if it’s just an emotional attachment, they’ll take great offense that you insulted their favorite hero in the supermarket.

And rather than wanting to really know the facts, it really, we settle into our feelings and emotions and attitudes and hold on to them fiercely. And then if you’re invested [00:26:00] financially your ears close real fast, if you hear information that suggests that your products. Are not helping people.

And a lot of people don’t realize. Ancestrally like the most of human population, like plant-based foods were more of a garnish. They were something that like, if we couldn’t get animal-based foods, which were superior, calories, nutrients, and so on and so forth that we would supplement with some plant foods.

It’s only recently. Or trying to eat big mountains and, salad, the size of that, which would have been the entire salad bar pizza hut like that wasn’t the norm. Like even most of us don’t even have to go that far back. Like we even think about going to have dinner at our grandparents’ house.

And there never was like a 75 cup salad that was part of have dinner. You might’ve maybe had a few over cooked vegetables to go with it. But it wasn’t a big,

If you think about it, a lot of people, even in North Carolina and people just got toilets a few years ago, some places that we didn’t [00:27:00] have the development of fresh water and refrigeration till a hundred years ago, Could, you might have a little garden in the summer, but you didn’t have a giant CRISPR bin in a modern refrigerator that controlled the temperature and humidity just right.

That you could keep it hanging around. Once you pick lettuce, it’s Withers really fast and becomes pretty unappealing pretty fast. So it was, we didn’t have the technology thank goodness to be real vegetable nuts. And they tried to push the potato on the Europeans 400 years ago and it took a little arm twisting to do that.

And people had enough salt and butter around could make them taste good, would eat them. But even the potato and then the peanuts, weren’t a human food. We grew them for the pigs. But then during the civil war, they ran out of food in the south. So they just said we’ll take this pig food and feed it to the soldiers to keep them from dying.

So it was a desperation move. And then the south realized, Hey, wait, We have no economy after this war, we have to come up with a new economy and they were having all these believable infections, wrecking the cotton. [00:28:00] So they were counting on peanut agriculture to help re restore an economy to the south.

And so they were getting people assigned to the new, USDA kind of thing. And Kellogg was busy inventing nut meat, and right at that same time. So we were inventing nuts as a substitute for meat around the same time. We were trying to salvage the Southern economy and turn peanut into a human food and chocolate wasn’t even a chocolate bar wasn’t really available until about 120 years ago.

And it wasn’t, it’s dark chocolate really has only been a thing for about 25 years. And it’s honestly, in terms of popular use, the dark chocolate thing is only about 15 years old. So all of these things we’re counting on his salvation, like not SAR, keto and chocolate is great for,

It’s almost just Neo foods that have a lot of profitability behind them and a lot of high fashion behind them. And nobody’s asking the question, could [00:29:00] you hurt yourself with these foods?

Carole Freeman: So would you mind just rattling off some of the top offenders, usually when people hear this list, they’re like, what so as you hear Sally, go through the top, the most commonly eaten foods, the ones that we think are the healthiest for us that are actually really high in oxalate.

So again, if you’re just doing in oxalates, are these compounds that are actually really toxic to us that are in plants. And we’ll talk more about like some of the really serious health issues that they can cause, and people, but what are some of the top offenders?

Sally Norton: The food’s really, like top streaming, a lot of oxalate into your body include spinach, Swiss cheese.

Sorrel and beet greens and that’s the greens department. All the other greens are pretty low, especially lettuces and arugula and again, those are fine in terms of oxalate, then there’s sweet potatoes and white potatoes, there’s chocolate, and the darker, the chocolate, the more oxalate it has, and chocolate is very bioavailable.

Oxalate gets right into the bloodstream quite easily and can really be a problem. Another set [00:30:00] of high oxalate foods that people are really attached to right now are almonds, cashews, pine nuts. And peanuts. Those are all very bioavailable, high, toxic, and currently available as fake cheese, fake milk, fake anything, make your sauces with them, make your bread with almonds.

And that’s a really big problem because those foods, especially the almonds are so toxic for many reasons and not just the oxalate. So they’re in there. , there’s a couple of fruits like blackberries, a Kiwi starfruit, which hardly anyone does, but starfruit is a really powerful superfood in other countries, Brazil and Asia.

They use it as like we use spinach, get healthy and people drop dead from starfruit. It’s really high oxalate, big problem food. And let’s see in the kind of grains, anything like brand whole grains, swab, buckwheat. Keene was having a heyday right now and it is terrible. And then there’s chia [00:31:00] seeds and hemp seeds.

Those are the types of chia bowls. Smoothies, juices, beets are not so good even to darn it. Oh, hemp too. I’m too. Yeah. But the oils, if you’re squeezing oils out of them, which I don’t recommend, cause seed oils are terrible for you, but the oils don’t have the oxalate in them. And some of the extracts don’t either and tumeric is another one that’s really high, whole root tumeric.

You can buy it in these like almost quart and a half jars and jugs. Now that was never a thing. But now people are like spooning it in having tablespoons of tumeric every day. And there’s some other spices that are pretty high too. But right now that’s the spice of the moment. And then I forget anything, Carole.

Carole Freeman: Yeah. Nothing. Not that I can think of that I would know. Yeah. So give us a number in the chat of how many of those foods are still in your diet right now. I think every time I talked to Sally, she’s learned more about this, right? So again, like I first met her about five years ago and I think every time we chat, [00:32:00] you’ve got, oh, and now this one too.

I think the hemp was a disappointment for one. I was like, fingers crossed that one’s okay. But no. All right. All the other ones I knew about. So what are so just so that we can catch everyone up to, so what are some top symptoms that people might have that they’re experiencing oxalate overload or oxalate toxicity in their body?

Are Superfoods Actually Toxic?

Sally Norton: It takes. Eight hours for you to absorb it all from your diet. And there’s a peak at about four hours Africa meal, four to five. So if you had a dinner, like I used to eat Swiss chard and sweeping potatoes for dinner, and I often had sweet potatoes for breakfast. I was, I’m very toxic. And so in bedtime, I would have this attack of belching and hiccups that would kill me.And those are actually symptoms of oxalate and stuff. And then I’d have trouble with sleep. And that was another symptom of Oxley stuff, but nobody knows this, that the hiccups are actually neuro toxicity and muscle spasms. And that’s because the, during those, at that fourth hour, the level of oxalic acid getting into your blood, see oxalic.

Yeah. Grabs minerals, [00:33:00] especially calcium and magnesium, iron and everything else too. But if you lower your calcium and your magnesium and mess with your electrolytes, it starts messing up how nerve and muscle works. They really need calcium to function properly. And even the heart arrhythmias, heart symptoms of all kinds, but honestly, most people go for years and don’t notice any real symptoms.

And even people have, there’s a genetic form of this disease, where the liver is making a whole lot of oxalate. And those people don’t live long lives. They’re very poisoned with oxalate, from a metabolic defect, and they often have very few symptoms until near the. So by the time you’re having symptoms, it means you’ve worn out your reserves, your buffering capacity to deal with that electrolyte disturbance.

After your meal gets worse and worse, and you end up with osteopenia, you end up with arthritis, a lot of connective tissue issues. Either your joints are too tight or they’re too loose, like Ehlers Danlos syndrome and chronic [00:34:00] joint issues, memory, sleep problems, neurological problems, mood problems. If you get clumsy now, and then this is all part of this electrolyte disturbance you get some really, it can get quite serious.

It’s very different in each person. Some people have urinary tract symptoms, cloudy, urine irritable, bladder, jumpy, bladder, getting up at night, having to pee all night long. Some of the develop kidney stones, which is the classic oxalate accumulation sign is kidney stones. But most of us. Inherent protections against kidney stones.

So we can eat a lot of oxalates and avoid the kidney stones. But what we tend to get instead is the arthritis, the fibromyalgia, the fatigue, the this, and that. And also you can end up with metabolic problems with insulin resistance and diabetes can be from the toxic effects of oxalate on the energy production system in cells.

That’s a whole big story. It’s interesting.

Carole Freeman: What I referred [00:35:00] clients to Sally, when no most things, when people follow keto that I’m working with, just everything in their life gets a lot better, but certain people, it doesn’t clear things up and they still have these mystery. Aches and pains in their body.

And they just don’t feel that great. And I identify oh, that person needs to talk to Sally. There’s something else going on, especially if they’ve got a history of oh, doing lots of almonds and green smoothies and their past and love of sweet potatoes and those kinds of things. And so I’ll refer them.

I’m not an expert in this. You need to go talk to Sally to get this cleaned up because the other part of the piece is getting those out of your body can be a problem for people too.

Sally Norton: Yeah, because they’re accumulating and now you got to get them out and that’s even worse than when they went in.

You’re more likely to have symptoms on the way out.

Carole Freeman: So Merily cleared a lot of these foods out of her diet, the last five years. Feeling a lot better. We tell us more merrily about what your what your how different you feel now that Carole saying, okay, so what are we supposed to eat? If these foods [00:36:00] are all toxic to us?

And we’ve been told for the last, I dunno what, 10 or 20 years that these are the superfoods, can we just stop eating? Yeah. So

Sally Norton: it really does obviously really understanding the Oxley problem. Really makes it clear that you do need to include animal foods in your diet, and you can have quite a bit of decent quality animal foods and do great on them.

So there’s no reason to restrict, to like the tiny little portions of meat and be afraid of big portions of me and be afraid of butter and eggs and all that. Those are quite suitable human foods. And I know that we don’t have time to go into all of that, but fundamentally I think if you’re ready for that, you need to be making animal foods, the centerpiece of the diet, and then using low oxalate vegetables and fruits to fill that out, the squashes and that whole family like cucumber and melons and Kobocha and butter nut, and [00:37:00] so on.

Those are all pretty low oxalate. And if you’re having a good gut and not bothered by lectins and you’re cooking them and so on, and those are wonderful foods to include in your diet as our, a wriggle and lettuce and most of the greens that aren’t those four bad ones. Are fine to have salads if that’s agreeing with you, but you really need to consult with your body.

And there is not one specific program or protocol that’s going to work for everyone. But if you eat enough fat and protein and really limit your carbs, I really believe in like keto morning, every day, like not kicking off your day with carbs or oxalates or trans fats or seed oils. Like no. So like really, one of the things I was doing when I got out of the vegan thing was I ended up using sardines as my breakfast food, which sounds weird to a lot of people, but popping open a can of sardines is quick and easy and hold you to lunch, and now I eat so much meat. I only need two meals a day and I’ve really simplified. I’m quite the chef and gardener.

And I always [00:38:00] used to cook three vegetables and a salad enemy with every meal and was like, could come home in an hour, whip out that kind of meal most nights. And I don’t do that anymore because I have ruined my digestion and my gut enough on my vegan background, I was doing very dumb thing, Carole, you probably wouldn’t have done this cause maybe you learned this and I didn’t at Cornell.

They didn’t teach us this, that lectins in beans need to be disarmed before the beans are safe to eat. So according to the literature, you have to soak a bean for three days or maybe four days, even literature says, and then cook it at the highest heat possible, like in a pressure cooker to disarm the lectins.

What was I doing as a vegan? I was putting dry on soak beans in a Crock-Pot and slow cooking them overnight. Preserving all those lectins in a summer of doing that by September, I got a really bad kind of, it looks like secondary to infection. Cause I ate out at a restaurant and got to like some little.

And that [00:39:00] tipped me over in my lectin damaged gut to permanent IBS. That was 1990. And I think some of that damage lives with me today. And now I don’t really tolerate a lot of the cabbage family vegetables now. So I don’t have an allergy to them. And they’re the low oxalate vegetables, like there’s the cubit family with the cucumber and the melons and the squashes.

And then there’s the cabbage family, which has got a rubella and watercraft, lovely greens and cabbages and rutabagas and turnips and radishes. And it’s a huge part of the grocery store probably. 30% of the grocery store is in the cabbage and a nice little oxalate foods, but they are hard to digest.

And with oxalate damage, the oxalates comes in an acid and a crystal. So the plants build these calcium crystals that are like little pieces of glass. And they’re designed to puncture mucosal membranes in her. There they’re meant to be weaponry. And so if you’re eating a lot of these pieces of [00:40:00] glass in these high oxalate foods and the acid that comes with it, You are also along with the lectins and these other plant compounds, really setting yourself up for inflammatory gut problems.

And once you have inflammation in the gut, you have leaky pathways in the gut and the oxalate ions or the oxalic acid just floats right in at a rate that’s could be five or six times higher than a normal rate of absorption. So in that case, you don’t even need a high oxalate diet. They have a high oxalate body because your level of intake into the bloodstream gets so ex host ordinarily bad.

And so we’re often we’re sick with gut inflammation and we use more high oxalate foods. And so very rapidly, someone like that will feel themselves go downhill and complete frustration and mystery. Like how, why, you’re doing all organic, homegrown, perfect, whatever, like figs is another one I forgot to mention. I grew those too.

Carole Freeman: Yeah. [00:41:00] So that’s, that explains partially why some people have such a, so much more of a lower tolerance for oxalate foods. Is that just unhealthy gut piece of the equation? Yeah, that makes sense. Joe, again, I don’t know if it’s Georgia, Jorge, but oh my God.

I’m living on oxygen water from now on. He says in all seriousness about once a month, my wife will have us, I think, have us eat a salad with dinner and I get IBS like symptoms. I told her that it may be that salad could be, yeah. I

Sally Norton: vote for your body. Go with the body. It’s your best friend. I tell my buddy, Hey honey, I’m your servant. You tell me and I’ll do it. I’m all there with that because my body does a lot for me. If I listened to.

Carole Freeman: Yeah we’re not designed to eat pounds and pounds of raw vegetables. Really not. We’re not talking to somebody about I don’t know who this Heidi Turner person is, but the kidney diet, I don’t know. Are you familiar with that, [00:42:00] sally? The kidney diet? I wonder if that’s a low oxalate diet. I haven’t heard of that better. Hopefully it is. Yeah.

Sally Norton: Yeah. I actually have had several clients suddenly on low Oxley are losing weight and they’re losing their eating disorders. So neurotoxic, drives this one woman alcoholic and eating disorders has been an O AA and AA for five decades and going low oxalate she’s.

She said, you know what, for the first time in my life, I don’t have these. Oh, that’s amazing.

Isn’t that cool. So it becomes much easier to like, especially if you’re getting enough protein and butter, then you’re like a happy camper that food loses its power in your life. And in many people have reported a lifelong nightmares disappear in a couple of weeks on the low oxalate diet.

This is a neurotoxicity. Wow. Autism is connected with [00:43:00] oxalates too, cause it is so neurotoxic. One woman, her 19 year old daughter finally was able to shower by herself without constant attention and instruction through the whole shower process. The family went low oxalate for the mom’s diet.

Carole Freeman: Amazing, amazing. I’ve got so there’s comments and questions that have come up on the interviews we’ve done in the past. So I want to pop some of those in here just to see. ’cause every time I get one I’m like, oh, I don’t know if it’s possible. I can tag you on YouTube or not, but I’m like, I wish I could see these and let’s see.

So we’ve got so actually 10 days ago on my interview of you like a year and a half ago Heather P says, that’s so funny about chocolate and pregnancy. So I don’t know what we said about pregnancy, but I could smell if someone opened a peanut butter cup on the other side of the house, just the smell of chocolate cause me to projectile vomit while I was pregnant with my daughter, everybody, including [00:44:00] my OB GYN has said that is weird.

My aversion to chocolate was protecting my unborn daughter. I agree with y’all on veganism. It is become a strange religion.

Sally Norton: That’s cool. And it reminds me of a client story that I got recently where the family, the couple had been keto for about three years and they were heavily. Reliant on almond flour and we’re making baked goods with almonds daily food.

And they decided during, at the end of her second pregnancy to stop the KIDO and go low oxalate and carnivore. And during that early time of that second child’s life that the breastfeeding process was very strange in that the ducks were clogging, were on unclog double with the normal ways. And then a crystal would come out.

Now, oxalates will start forming crystals throughout the whole body. So this woman’s breasts were expelling oxalate crystals. And when the crystal would come out, that would be the same [00:45:00] time when the baby would have crystal and stools, bright red genitalia and fussiness. So it was definitely. The high actually diet probably already affected the child.

And then the breast milk was apparently high in oxalate in certain times, in these cycles, the body does to get rid of it and it body does use breast milk to get rid of toxins in the breast tissues because it concentrates calcium to make milk are a place rocks, slates gravitate to cause calcium and oxalic acid love each other.

It’s an oxalate tends to follow calcium and vice-versa around the body and ends up in bones and in areas where calcification is going on. So that was that’s pretty disturbing actually, because we know the placenta, the, this oxalic acid easily gets into fetuses and it clearly gets into breast milk. So yeah, I can, I’m concerned about young people who are trying to live. keto flour and spinach smoothies and dark chocolate. [00:46:00]

Carole Freeman: A good reminder about the almond flour it’s so prevalent in, we’ve had an explosion of keto products in the grocery stores the last year, especially in an, all of them were based on that, almond flour in there too. So it’s a really good reminder that it’s not doing me any favors.

Christina, had a comment in here. How about association with Lyme disease? So she’s saying that she had vulva pain and looked up and found oxalate toxins too. Any association with Lyme complications. For sure. The

Sally Norton: oxalic acid poisoning and oxalate buildup in the body changes the biochemistry of the body and makes us more prone to infection and makes the body acidic.

And that seems to promote things like yeast infections and other infections, and where oxalate gets stuck in tissues and starts accumulating and tissues is places where we have infection places where we have inflammation, places where we have injured tissue, because it’s really [00:47:00] sticking to cellular material, a little vacuum tools and cell membranes and pieces that aren’t really part of a living cell anymore.

The living cells have defenses and they’re smart sentient little beings, and they defend themselves from oxygen and try not to accumulate oxalate or at least try to manage it, to try to spare the heart and the kidneys. I think the other tissues do sacrifice on behalf of the heart and the kidneys. Cause they’re nothing without them.

But where you’ve got had infection, you’re going to get oxalate accumulation. And so you’re going to have trouble treating. I’ve had people near death’s door with things like C diff and all these things. And it, what fix them was low oxalate diet. And that’s really what’s going to resolve chronic infections is getting on a low Oxley diet.

But the thing is, as you’re releasing deposits out of tissues, you’re going to release old dizzy, old infections. So for me, what came back during the years of oxalate clearing was Epstein-Barr virus in life. I didn’t want any, either one [00:48:00] of them, but I tested positive for them around year three of three or four in low Oxy diet.

And I ended up taking one round of doxy cycling and it knocked it out both, I was like better. So I haven’t had them retested, but we see this a lot. Like I got my first ever cold sore after I went on a low oxalate diet. Cause these viruses,

Carole Freeman: This other comment here, we’ll go right along with that then is Kathy Harmon three weeks ago said she has Lichen’s sclerosis. Is that how you say that? Yes. Yeah,

Sally Norton: it’s very much an oxalate issue. Okay. Nasty pain. Okay. Had

Carole Freeman: a worst flare up I’ve ever had. About two months ago, my skin split open hundreds of fluid-filled blisters. I could hardly work the ointment. My doctor prescribed did not do anything. I started searching the internet and found advice to follow low oxalate.

I didn’t even know that was the thing eventually found Sally on steak and butter gal and almost cried as I came to the realization that oxalates are responsible for [00:49:00] my auto-immune disease, highly sensitive to dairy, and I’ve cut out gluten, caffeine and sugar, and I’m eating low oxalate vegetables, meat gluten-free bread.

Drink only water with occasional cup of herbal tea. And let’s see what else. Thank you so much, Sally, for sharing some of your issues with us and educating us about oxalates. I’m very thankful to have found you.

Sally Norton: I would love to talk about auto immune diseases, and also just mentioned that pelvic pain of all kinds, including this evil genital pain is very common set of syndromes that people get both men and women.

And if you have unexplained weird joints, unexplained, weird pains, you really should be thinking oxalates and in helping others think that too. So that’s wonderful that people are actually finding this because there’s not a lot of receptivity to ideas that are. Confirmed all around us. We liked just confirmation bias is a popular thing.

So any, but those of us who are really sick and like we’ve run out of options. We’re, we’ll listen and learn. But the auto-immune thing, this is really important. I thought I must have had handfuls of autoimmune diseases. I had [00:50:00] this like bad thyroid and one doctor said I had Hashimoto’s and I had all these other things that looked like auto immune disease.

And see, it’s not really the body attacking itself. It’s something in the body causing constant provoking, constantly provoking the immune system to deal with stuff you’re just overworking the immune system. And the formation of crystals in your body is a great way to create chronic influent inflammation.

Also just an oxidative compound. Obviously it has four oxygen’s on it and is an acid. It causes cellular damage, which causes. Oxidative stress and sells that turns on inflammation. It causes a kind of cellular damage that leaks south start leaking out their stuff that turns on the immune system. Then you start forming crystals around those damaged and dying cells and that causes inflammation.

And then when you change and go up and down and oscillate, she could be turning on inflammation or to get rid of them and then eat them again. It’s if you don’t know that you’re going on and off a high oxalate diet, you can just keep yourself in this really unpleasant place where your [00:51:00] poor immune system is trying to deal with the really tough.

Problem. And that’s why, if you overeat oxalates long enough, you will get a chronic inflammatory condition that doesn’t turn around, but it takes 10 years or more to do all of this stuff because it’s going to take for me, my spine is loaded with Oxley crystals still, and we’re still working on a spine.

Carole Freeman: Okay. It’s George he’s weighed in he’s. He says, George is how I can say it. Does Sally have any thoughts on coffee? Great conversation. So glad you’re here, George. Tell us about coffee. So

Sally Norton: coffee is very low in oxalate. There, there is a misnomer that coffee has oxalate. And this is example of why the oxalate data is so terrible.

Nobody knows what they’re talking about with the data, and I’ll have a whole new data product coming out in a couple of weeks that you can get through my website. So that’ll help straighten the answers. But, and I have a whole post on my website on my blog about coffee, [00:52:00] because it’s a great example of how lousy the science can be.

If you look per gram, how much oxalates is per gram and instant coffee powder, and then a hundred grams of coffee looks of instant coffee. It looks like it has a lot, but it teaspoon or two of ox of powder ways like barely a gram. So it’s. If you were going to eat instant coffee powder by the cup, like just the powder, then you could make coffee, a high oxalate food.

The other way you could turn off coffee into Hawks, like food is you could add mocha and chocolate and other flavorings that are basically Coco related and then cause chocolate and cocoa. It’s the brown part of the chocolate, the cocoa powder that has all the oxalates.

Carole Freeman: It’s a good news. There’s some good news here. You can have water and air and coffee,

Sally Norton: except for people like me now, herbal tea asks Maryles he’s asking about. Almost all of them are low and oxalate, which is hard to explain because even, some of the herbs that technically are high oxalate, like [00:53:00] cinnamon have mostly the crystals and those crystals just warm water.

Doesn’t break down the crystals. You would need an acidic gut or something to break them down and release the oxalate. So just giving them a little bath and a little boiling water for two minutes does not bring those oxalates out. A lot of those herbs, herbal teas are almost all pretty low. The only one it’s a little bit high is ginger tea. And even that’s not so terrible that I can remember

Carole Freeman: herbal tea, coffee, and water and air we’re doing and meat, and butter.

Sally Norton: So calcium is really protective too. That’s why, if he quit eating dairy foods, then you drop your calcium intake so much. Then that leaves the oxalic acid Unbound with calcium from your day.

And more of it gets into your bloodstream. So that’s why I was saying earlier that the vegan approach turns a half say diet into a big mess.

Carole Freeman: Another question here that I think is good. Jay asked little confused Sally saying that our liver produces oxalates as part of the metabolic process, whether we eat [00:54:00] oxalates or not, what is the purpose of the body doing this?

Sally Norton: Okay. So that’s called endogenous production. That’s comes from the liver and the cells producing a little oxalate. Now, the interesting thing is your total oxalate that your body would produce under typical conditions would be about 12 milligrams. Okay. Which isn’t a lot and your total capacity to have oxalate coming through the kidneys and the bladder and a urine is about 25.

And that’s, that would be fine. The thing is, most of that endogenous oxalate is coming from vitamins. Which is not coming from your liver, doesn’t your body can’t make vitamin C. That’s why it’s a vitamin you’re like you don’t, you can’t make, it’s not that endogenous really, it’s the vitamin C in your diet.

And squeeze, we now have fresh fruits and vegetables year round. We eat a lot of vitamin C and for the last, I would say 40 years, we’ve been pushing vitamin C supplements. And during this COVID era, vitamin C supplements are really being encouraged. And if you take more than about 300 milligrams a day of vitamin C, you are [00:55:00] taking such an excess of vitamin C that a lot of that just naturally turns into oxalate in the body.

So like something like 80% of endogenous oxalate is coming from vitamin c.

Carole Freeman: Interesting. Oh, I love that. I’m going about how so fruit used to be seasonal. We would only have at a very short window of time and before refrigeration, it didn’t last very long. And so our exposure to vitamin C. Was annual.

Sally Norton: Because you would, you might dry your fruit for over the winter. That was done for, this has been done for a long time, but the more dried out something is less vitamin C, it has liquid like spinach dried spinach has almost no vitamin C in it. Vitamin C is fairly perishable. Huh?

Yeah. It just points to the seasonality. I think if you ate too much fruit and too much, whatever, vitamin C containing things in the certain season, when they’re available, you would always run into a winter time where they [00:56:00] weren’t. And that would be a time where your body could reverse whatever oxalate accumulation was going on.

The body will reverse it when it goes low. So before refrigerators and trains and trucks and California produce in Mexican produce. All of that, then you just got through the winter on white biscuits and ham. You just didn’t get a lot of vitamin C or a lot of oxalate, so you could clean it out every year and kind of get by with that, the potatoes or whatever.

But nowadays we’re supposed to be eating five fruits and vegetables every day and taking vitamin C. And that’s not what we’re designed to do.

Carole Freeman: Ah, so true. Christina, she’d asked a question, a couple of questions, but also as curious if your take is, gluten allergy could be related to oxalate problem, you’re eating like a whole grain breads, but I know also like refined white flour, people can have issues with that related to gluten.

Sally Norton: Do think that [00:57:00] gluten is a type of lectin. We talked about lectins with the beans and those lectin compounds can be pretty hardcore. And we really need to soak those grains for several days in this sort of low, slow sourdough process, and then really cook it hard and then maybe even toast it later, and so there’s possibility that gluten is also somewhat denature trouble through like the lectins are in the beans. I don’t know. I haven’t really studied that, but I do think this sort of green. Plant toxin based diet and the beans and so on is wrecking our gut and increasing our susceptibility to gluten.

And once you’ve done that, like what I did you become, and I’m very sensitive to gluten, according to testing, like extremely, and really according to testing, really extremely allergic to coffee and all kinds of random in Brussels sprouts and cabbage and cauliflower. And I do think this is a product of this chronic [00:58:00] inflammation in the gut from eating this way.

It’s not resolving in fact, because the oxalate crystals in the body continue to turn up an immune engagement and the gut, the colon, especially isn’t excretion site, the body tries to get rid of obsolete primarily for the kidneys, but it’s also coming out through the colon, the T. The saliva, the skin, and maybe even through the mucosal lining of the lungs.

So as long as you got a traffic in this toxin, it’s going to be hard for you to fully heal the gut. And the guts got to deal with this elimination of toxins and waste all the time. Maybe there’s programs in the future, but I really encourage taking your time and not expecting these allergies and intolerances to resolve very quickly.

I think they could over a long queue, give yourself like 15 years and lots of sauna and self care and maybe some fasting programs here and there. But if we really, if you let it go, like [00:59:00] I, I was eating high oxalate foods. Rhubarb was when I failed to mention specifically where the worst offenders, cause I don’t consider it a popular food, although.

It in pockets of the world. And like in, within certain families or certain regions, rhubarb is very popular. And but these, reckon ourselves on these foods. So sometimes it’s not as complete turnaround. That’s why I would like people to just learn from the, get, go, to not wreck their kids’ guts with the wrong foods and give them a lifetime of problems.

Carole Freeman: One of the fun things you got coming as you kind of book finally coming out, will you tell, Hey, I do.

Sally Norton: It’s called toxic superfoods. See it. It’s got, yeah, it’s got pictures of the foods on there. If you forget what they are, they’re right there on the cover. And that is available for pre-order starting around the 27th of March, 2020.

And we’ll be at your door by the 27th of December. The publisher decided to hold onto it for that. Let’s get healthy period that happens at the new year. So they’re [01:00:00] holding it until then, which will give us a chance to pre-order enough of them. So they publish enough of them. And so that we get a chance to like jump on it and tell people, this is a pretty good book.

I think you’re going to like this book, Carole.

Carole Freeman: I can’t wait. Is it is that on your website or let’s say I want to share the right art or there I am going

Sally Norton: to, I was sharing it through Instagram and I don’t think I haven’t had time yet to create a page for it on my website, but come to my website where you can join group classes and touch base with me and get updates you can get on my email.

That’s the best way to, to be updated about the book or anything else is get on my email list. I’m going to try to be better about sending emails out more often. I’m not a big fan of doing that. But. I just lost my Instagram account. So it’s going to force me to really serve my email list a little better than I’ve been doing.

So there’s a lot coming. I’m going to do a prep provider course this year, and I’m working on a testimonial series. So my YouTube channel will [01:01:00] start filling up later this year with all kinds of interesting case studies of people, sharing their war stories of how they messed up their health with oxalate and what this recovery looks like.

And all the different things people have gone through. It’s really fun and fascinating to hear people’s stories. And you may find certain people really resonate with your situation or help you help someone else. I’m hoping these interviews will help people who are worried about their mom or their brother or their neighbor say, Hey, you should listen to this interview with Sally and this person who sounds just like you.

Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got This, oh, this lady, I got to share her her comment. Cause I think it’s going to be a good way to close this out, but so a website is Sally K norton.com. I’ve got it on the screen here, but if you’re just listening, it’s Sally K norton.com check out information there. I know you have a there’s a resource on there somewhere the common.

Carole Freeman: I’m not seeing it really quickly,

Sally Norton: but there’s several places where I list the worst offenders [01:02:00] and there’s a beginner’s guide there that lists the worst offenders and has all the basics in there. And if you sign up for the mailing list, you will get a coupon they’ll might even pay for the beginners guide, which is only $2 and 50 cents. I’m big into having cheap stuff. There’s a bunch of free articles. There. There’s a cookbook. It’s a PDF. It’s not a physical book, but it’s a PDF of about 180 recipes. A lot of them have cabbage vegetables in them. Very few dairy foods in there though. A lot of us ended up with a little bit of a dairy sensor or have that in the beginning. You did go on a low oxalate diet. You can put dairy back in your diet and do well on it

Carole Freeman: Merily. So she’s ordering the book. Excellent. Good. Yeah. I wanted to share this, another comment on here. This is Olga who commented on one of our past interviews. She said, Sally is an oxalates queen. I am so grateful for her knowledge and experience sharing.

None of my doctors know that much about this very serious issue, as much [01:03:00] as she does. She became my main healer. My hero after I discovered her YouTube over a year ago, I think she deserves a Nobel prize.

Sally Norton: Thank you. Yeah, it’s been a very fortunate thing that I could turn my own misfortune into a chance to serve other people and just live in a space where people say, thank you repeatedly to me.

And I get to meet the most wonderful people. People who have persisted in their pursuit of decent health, who’ve loved themself enough to not give up on themselves. And they touched me so deeply. the fact that no one else is helping them and little old me gets to do that is really a precious space. So I just, I love all my folks in the chance to meet cool people through doing this work. So it’s been great.


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